Keith,
I've followed this discussion from the first posting but have been hesitant to participate until now. I think your own statement, "I believe that many graduates from the oft-detested "online schools" can improve their research and analytical skills given time and the right direction," validates many of the arguments made here concerning the lack of research knowledge and ability of many who have pursued online degrees. The point many have made is that online schools, in general, do not provide that direction. You have more or less confirmed that point.
Several involved in this discussion have mentioned that most research schools will not hire individuals who have attained their degrees through online programs. I would like to add that most AACSB accredited regional universities will not either because although the research requirements are not as stringent as at research schools, peer reviewed publications and presentations at conferences are still required to be deemed academically qualified and to gain promotion and tenure.
As you probably have guessed I received my Ph.D. from a brick & mortar university. However, I was already an instructor at another university when I decided to pursue my doctorate. I kept my instructor position and pursued my degree part-time for two years before taking a sabbatical to pursue it full time for a year to meet residency requirements. The difference between my part-time and full-time experiences was profound. I am able to understand why most B & M programs require students to be full-time. I may actually have learned more through my day-to-day interactions with my professors and fellow students than I did in the classroom. An earlier comment was made to this effect and I totally agree.
Regards,
Sonya
Sonya F. Premeaux, Ph.D.
Associate Dean
Gerald Gaston Endowed Professor of Business Administration
College of Business Administration
Nicholls State University
P.O. Box 2015
Thibodaux, LA 70310
Phone: 985-448-4240
www.nicholls.edu/business
>>> Daniel Tan <
dantan@DANTAN.ORG> 7/20/2010 10:47 AM >>>
Dear Keith,
I agree with you that off-campus students lack the concentrated focus and
active mentorship compared to full-time scholars. Given the typical
background of the students, that's fair enough. Many of us are just not
fulltime scholars. *Touche*.
However, in preparation of my own dissertation and subsequent academic
publishing, I have studied many dissertations and journal articles from
scholars from both offline and online schools. If I may be so bold to
venture a personal opinion, perhaps the distinction is better made for AACSB
schools versus non-AACSB schools. I have read many dissertations from brick
and mortar, non-AACSB schools that also just make use of t-tests and
multiple regression techniques to analyze and report findings.
In addition, I'm not sure whether some studies necessarily require more
complicated statistical techniques to make the point, but this is a
discussion for another day. Of course, I appreciate that exploratory and
confirmatory factor analyses, structural equation modeling techniques,
hierarchical linear modeling and other advanced analytical methodologies
certainly have their uses and I guess, it is one way to separate the haves
from the have-nots. But it is regrettable if it comes down to only this, and
this situation in itself is not insurmountable - while some graduates may
struggle, I believe that many graduates from the oft-detested "online
schools" can improve their research and analytical skills given time and the
right direction.
As I wrote in an earlier post, the dialogue seems to revolve around the
seeming shortcomings of online schools in preparing their graduates for a
life of research. Yet, less dialogue is made as to how to extract value from
these folks who seem to have an interest in scholarship but have taken a
non-traditional route for various reasons. This to me is a real pity and I
hope that some day we can move beyond this dialogue toward one with more
meaning and opportunities for all.
Cheers,
Daniel
On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 8:25 PM, Keith Leavitt <
keithleavitt@gmail.com>wrote:
> Dear Colleagues,
>
> I've been following this conversation with great interest, and would like
> to make a couple simple observations that have not yet been made.
>
> A lot of people supporting on-line doctoral programs here are mentioning
> career goals outside of academia. The glaring hole (besides lack of
> mentorship from research active faculty) is that on-line programs are
> part-time affairs. Behavioral research has converged upon an estimated
> 10,000 hours to build expertise in most any pursuit. Do the math: 40 hours
> per week X 52 weeks per year puts you at 10,000 hours after 5 years.
>
> This heuristic, of course, does not even consider the fact that our field
> requires expertise in MULTIPLE skills (writing, data analysis, theory
> development, and knowledge of many literatures). Most of us remember
> (fondly
> or not so fondly) 50-60 hour weeks throughout most of our doctoral studies.
> A part-time PhD student simply cannot become an expert, and this is
> reflected in the paucity of tier-1 publications from their graduates. As
> evidence, an acquaintance of mine recently completed such a degree, and her
> (approved!) dissertation consisted of a series of T-tests: gender effects
> on
> already well-understood constructs.
>
> Secondly, if your goal is NOT an academic or institutional research
> career, why bother with a PhD? My guess is that the motivation is
> frequently
> to borrow the degree's legitimacy for increased marketability and billable
> consulting rates, rather than make a meaningful contribution to the body of
> knowledge (a value that PhDs are supposed to internalize).
>
> One better alternative:
>
> Many Universities now offer DBA (doctor of business administration)
> programs
> for practitioners who would like to add greater depth than what they
> learned
> in an MBA program, but do not have a terminal goal of a career in
> scholarship. These programs are frequently organized around working
> schedules; this seems like a more appropriate career move (and a better
> spend of your money) for those not focused on research.
>
> Best,
>
> Keith Leavitt
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Organizational Behavior Division Listserv
> [mailto:
OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Arthur Wolak
> Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 9:05 PM
> To:
OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
> Subject: Re: [OB-LIST] PhD program online [PDW]
>
> Dear Colleagues,
>
> I have also been following this discussion with considerable interest. When
> comparing "brick and mortar" PhD programs with "online" programs, it seems
> that the presumption is that comparisons are being made on students
> completing coursework as part of their PhD programs. This further suggests
> that those contributing to this discussion (who perhaps oppose online
> study)
> are likely North American-based, or have earned their PhDs in North
> American
> settings.
>
> But what about UK and Australian PhD programs that are not based on
> coursework per se, but rather are traditional doctoral research degree
> programs? This does not seem to have been mentioned so far (unless I've
> missed a message). Such traditional research doctorates common in the
> United
> Kingdom, other parts of Europe, and Australia, do not tend to require
> coursework or specific course in research methodology (other than what is
> required by a particular student's type of thesis). Many such students
> spend
> years working on their research doctorates yet may not spend much time in
> the classroom because they are researching... whether in the library or in
> the field, depending on the type of thesis they're working on.
>
> If there might be a North American (or international) bias against online
> PhD programs due to lack of socialization among the research community
> (btw,
> I have no firsthand knowledge of which schools offer online programs or
> what
> they require), would there similarly be a North American bias against those
> who have completed traditional research doctorates in Australia, the UK, or
> in other places where this tradition is the norm rather than the exception?
> Mine was completed in Australia, so this is the PhD tradition with which
> I'm
> most familiar.
>
> Just curious to hear anyone's thoughts on this.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Arthur Wolak, Ph.D.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jacob Eisenberg <mailto:
Jacob.Eisenberg@UCD.IE>
> To:
OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
> Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 4:51 AM
> Subject: Re: [OB-LIST] PhD program online [PDW]
>
>
> Dear Colleagues,
>
>
>
> I have been following with interest the discussion regarding PhD
> delivery modes, involved processes and principles and implications. I was
> wondering if we can go a step further and crafting a PDW based on the theme
> and discussion that ensued here. In two weeks, I will be stepping into a
> new
> role as the MED Division's Program-Chair Elect. In this role, I will be
> chairing the MED PDW program for the Academy meeting in Aug. 2011. I would
> love to see some of you come together with a PDW proposal that builds on
> the
> theme. Such a PDW should be of interest for few divisions, including MED,
> OB
> and possibly Careers.
>
>
>
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
>
>
>
>
> Jacob
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Jacob Eisenberg, Ph.D.
>
> Editorial Board, Academy of Management Learning & Education (AMLE)
>
> UCD School of Business,
>
> University College Dublin,
>
> Belfield, Dublin 4, Ireland
>
>
>
> Tel: +353-1-716 4774
>
> Fax: +353-1-716 4762
>
> Email:
Jacob.eisenberg@ucd.ie <mailto:
Jacob.eisenberg@ucd.ie>
>
>
http://www.ucd.ie/management/staff.htm
> <http://www.ucd.ie/management/staff.htm>
>
>
>
> From: Organizational Behavior Division Listserv
> [mailto:
OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Meglino, Bruce
> Sent: 18 July 2010 18:58
> To:
OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
> Subject: Re: [OB-LIST] PhD program online
>
>
>
> Dear Colleagues,
>
> Much of this discussion has been peppered with personal experiences
> of teachers, students, and evaluators. In that vein, let me recount one of
> mine.
>
>
>
> In gathering data for a forthcoming meta-analysis, I read more that
> 100 dissertations, many from online universities including Capella. I paid
> particular attention to the theoretical, methodological, and statistical
> rigor of each dissertation. My conclusions were perfectly consistent with
> the advice I gave to Richard Cruz.
>
>
>
> Since full text pdfs of dissertations are available online in
> searchable form, I would encourage anyone interested in assessing the
> differences between online and residential Ph.D. programs to pick an OB
> topic and compare the dissertations produced from both types of programs.
>
>
>
> Bruce
>
>
>
> Bruce M. Meglino
>
> Professor and Ph.D. Coordinator in Management
>
> The Moore School of Business
> University of South Carolina Columbia, SC 29208
>
> Voice: 803.777-5970; Fax: 803.777-6876
>
>
http://mooreschool.sc.edu/facultyandresearch/faculty.aspx?faculty_id=71
> <http://mooreschool.sc.edu/facultyandresearch/faculty.aspx?faculty_id=71>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
>
> From: Organizational Behavior Division Listserv
> [mailto:
OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Janet Salmons
> Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 9:43 AM
> To:
OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
> Subject: Re: [OB-LIST] PhD program online
>
>
>
> Hello everyone,
>
>
>
> Capella University offers a rigorous online doctoral program with
> varied options in the School of Business and Technology or the School of
> Public Service Leadership, depending on what kind of organization interests
> you. I respectfully disagree with Dr. Meglino. As a doctoral faculty member
> and mentor in the School of Business and Technology I have very close
> relationships and ongoing close interactions with learners. Learners who
> have me as a mentor or committee member would tell you that their research
> designs, data collection and analysis are subjects of ongoing conversation
> and undergo careful scrutiny. Our research oversight, through IRB and
> approval processes, are anything but a slam dunk.
>
>
>
> At Capella, doctoral residencies and Dissertation Writers' Retreats
> offer face-to-face opportunities. I also use online meeting and shared
> document tools and phone conversations to communicate with my doctoral
> mentees who are working on dissertations. I convene online meetings with
> groups of mentees who discuss their research and share ideas. These
> learners
> may miss some informal interactions common in an on-ground program but they
> gain something else-extraordinary skills in online communication and
> collaboration, and 21st century academic skills. They are prepared to
> research, work and/or teach in a global, digitally-connected world. Since
> our learners are adults they can draw on both practical and academic
> knowledge as scholar-practitioners. Having spent a chunk of my own academic
> life in an Ivy League setting, I think this mix abilities in critical and
> applied thinking is quite valuable. Given the complex and challenging
> problems of our time we need thoughtful researchers who can help us
> understand and solve them.
>
>
>
> I would point out that the world of scholarship is changing. Just as
> e-learning has changed the way education happens even in traditional
> institutions e-research will change the way we think about scholarship. The
> ways people conduct research are changing and I'd argue that new ways to
> cultivate researchers are also needed. Online programs offer new ways to
> think about the formation of scholars. I'm interested in exploring new ways
> to support and guide the learners who work with me on dissertations. (I've
> recently written a book called Online Interviews in Real Time, and am in
> progress on a book called Cases in Online Interview Research, both from
> Sage.)
>
>
>
> I encourage Mr. Cruz to think about career plans and look at all of
> the options, including those offered online. Certainly in on-ground
> institutions some are more research-oriented than others-and the focus and
> programs will appeal to some learners and not others. I think it is
> beneficial to have more diverse options accessible to a wider range of
> potential scholars.
>
>
>
>
>
> All the best,
>
>
>
> Janet Salmons, PhD
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> V2L logo-sml
> Janet Salmons Ph.D.
> Core Faculty, Capella University School of Business and Technology &
>
> Founder/Principal Consultant, Vision2Lead, Inc.
> Site-
http://www.vision2lead.com <http://www.vision2lead.com/>
>
> Now available! Online Interviews in Real Time
> <
>
http://www.sagepub.com/booksProdTOC.nav?prodId=Book233088&currTree=Courses&
> level1=Course1007<http://www.sagepub.com/booksProdTOC.nav?prodId=Book233088&currTree=Courses&%0Alevel1=Course1007>
> >
>
> Read: Uncommon Places for Research
> <http://tinyurl.com/uncommonplaces.>
>
> Join the Qualitative E-Research Group
> <http://www.methodspace.com/group/eresearch> and companion group in
> Second
> Life
>
> Follow Twitter at /einterview
> PO Box 943
> Boulder, CO 80306-0943
> 303-443-3075
>
>
>
>
>