Discussion: View Thread

Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

  • 1.  Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    Posted 03-03-2009 20:24
    Dear Colleague:

    This oped may be of interest.

    http://www.wickedlocal.com/cambridge/archive/x1592479046/Guest-commentary-Incentives-for-Teachers-No

    Best wishes

    Martin G Evans


  • 2.  Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    Posted 03-03-2009 22:17
    As I always say: Be careful what you measure because it will drive
    behavior!!!

    Martin demonstrates the validly of that statement again.

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Martin Evans" <martin.evans@UTORONTO.CA>
    To: <OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU>
    Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:23 PM
    Subject: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation


    Dear Colleague:

    This oped may be of interest.

    http://www.wickedlocal.com/cambridge/archive/x1592479046/Guest-commentary-Incentives-for-Teachers-No

    Best wishes

    Martin G Evans


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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  • 3.  Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    Posted 03-04-2009 05:42
    Martin,
    I need to see your next article on the enhancement of intrinsic motivation!
    I enjoyed reading it. I couldn't agree with you more on the emphasis of
    input. I am in the process of trying to convince my colleagues to pay more
    attention to the input and your note does come in handy! Thanks.
    Baba

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Organizational Behavior Division Listserv
    [mailto:OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Martin Evans
    Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:24 PM
    To: OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    Dear Colleague:

    This oped may be of interest.

    http://www.wickedlocal.com/cambridge/archive/x1592479046/Guest-commentary-In
    centives-for-Teachers-No

    Best wishes

    Martin G Evans


  • 4.  Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    Posted 03-04-2009 09:55
    Martin:
     
    This email did not get posted on the OB discussion board and I wanted you to see it.
     
    Good job getting the discussion going on this subject.
     
    Keith
    ----- Original Message -----
    Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 7:25 AM
    Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    You ignore the fact that teachers are always incentivized, so the key is to create a system in which those incentives serve students, teachers and the system. The problem is that most teachers are not trained at all in discerning the changes in students that might be considered desirable -- educational. These changes are subtle and occur over a relatively long period of time. In addition, teachers are not trained in the ways in which their own personal goals can be achieved through teaching. Hence, they seek more obvious, easily recognized changes in students.
     
    Improvements in education must come through a dramatically different mode of helping teachers become aware of themselves and of the ways that their behavior in the classroom can give them joy. Most of their joys will be intrinsic, but the source lies in the classroom and teacher-student interaction. Only when teachers know what turns them on will they be able, willing, and interested in manifesting those behaviors. Hopefully, with good training and proper choice of personnel, those behaviors will be educational for the teacher and student.
     
    James L. Bess
    Professor Emeritus
    New York University
     
    (Take a look at my books, especially Teaching Well and Liking It and Teaching Along, Teaching Together. 
     
     
    In a message dated 3/3/2009 10:55:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, keith-aom@MORGAN.ORG writes:
    As I always say: Be careful what you measure because it will drive
    behavior!!!

    Martin demonstrates the validly of that statement again.

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Martin Evans" <martin.evans@UTORONTO.CA>
    To: <OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU>
    Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:23 PM
    Subject: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation


    Dear Colleague:

    This oped may be of interest.

    http://www.wickedlocal.com/cambridge/archive/x1592479046/Guest-commentary-Incentives-for-Teachers-No

    Best wishes

    Martin G Evans


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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    07:25:00
     


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  • 5.  Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    Posted 03-04-2009 12:06

    Colleagues,

     

    That's a great article Martin! There was a 1975 article by Steven Kerr, "In the Folly of Rewarding A, While Hoping for B" (Academy of Management Journal, Vol. 18, No. 4), in which he discussed this very issue.  We in the higher education establishment have forever made an effort to measure effectiveness of teaching and education itself in a very, very short run - from semester to semester, and this is an absurd.  The effectiveness of education can only be measured in the long run, and after the graduate has done something with it.  Most of us tell students that they need to get an education to succeed in life, but we don't talk too much about how they should use their education to succeed. I find much more satisfaction any time I get a note of appreciation for the teaching job done from a former student five years or so after graduation. 

     

    Since learning is an intrinsic process, helping others to achieve success in learning cannot easily be measured. Teaching, or better yet helping other to learn, has to generate intrinsic motivation.  There is nothing my chair or anyone else can say or do to keep me from fully enjoying my interaction with the students.  It is not affected by whether I get a merit increase or not, or by university policy issues, or the type of administration we have.  Once I close the classroom door behind me, nothing else counts but the group of people I can have an impact on. They are the only ones I can do anything about it, so I get basically all my satisfaction from that activity!  

     

    Thanks,

     

    Ivan 

     

     

     

     

     

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Organizational Behavior Division Listserv [mailto:OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Baba Vishwanath
    Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 4:42 AM
    To: OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

     

    Martin,

    I need to see your next article on the enhancement of intrinsic motivation!

    I enjoyed reading it. I couldn't agree with you more on the emphasis of

    input. I am in the process of trying to convince my colleagues to pay more

    attention to the input and your note does come in handy! Thanks.

    Baba

     

    -----Original Message-----

    From: Organizational Behavior Division Listserv

    [mailto:OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Martin Evans

    Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:24 PM

    To: OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU

    Subject: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

     

    Dear Colleague:

     

    This oped may be of interest.

     

    http://www.wickedlocal.com/cambridge/archive/x1592479046/Guest-commentary-In

    centives-for-Teachers-No

     

    Best wishes

     

    Martin G Evans



  • 6.  Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    Posted 03-04-2009 13:05

    Sorry for the self-promotion, but here's an empirical study investigating instrumental vs. less/non-instrumental pay systems among knowledge workers (from journal of org. behavior 2006):



    Bård
    Bård Kuvaas, Dr. Oecon/PhD
    Professor of Organizational Psychology
    Department of Leadership and Organization Management
    BI Norwegian School of Management
    Nydalsveien 37, 0442 Oslo, Norway
    Telephone: +47 06600
    Dial direct: + 47 4641 0731
    Telefax: +47 4641 0701
    Home telephone: +47 6301 0478
    E-mail: bard.kuvaas@bi.no
    Home page: http://www.bi.no/Content/AcademicProfile____68856.aspx?ansattid=FGL90032



    Martin Evans <martin.evans@UTORONTO.CA>
    Sent by: Organizational Behavior Division Listserv <OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU>

    04.03.2009 02:49

    Please respond to
    Organizational Behavior Division Listserv <OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU>

    To
    OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    cc
    Subject
    Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation





    Dear Colleague:

    This oped may be of interest.

    http://www.wickedlocal.com/cambridge/archive/x1592479046/Guest-commentary-Incentives-for-Teachers-No

    Best wishes

    Martin G Evans



  • 7.  Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    Posted 03-04-2009 13:41
    In reply to Martin Evans:

    I don't have a solution for a single best way to motivate teachers, but it
    is very clear that incompetent teaching is rampant in our culture--students
    come to college who are virtually illiterate. They cannot write, cannot
    read (except for 4 letter words--I don't just mean swear words), cannot
    spell and do not even know basic grammar. And they think cheating is normal
    and acceptable.

    The bottom line is that teachers are not properly trained, not properly
    evaluated, and thanks to the NTU they know that it is almost impossible to
    get fired.

    To think that "intrinsic motivation" is going to solve this is like
    thinking the tooth fairy will change your flat tire.

    At deepest root all this represents the decline of our culture, especially
    the gradual destruction of all standards in almost every field.

    As a minimum we need to insist on much higher standards in our schools and
    some form of merit system. It is no accident that we are pretty much at the
    bottom compared to all advanced countries in terms of student competence.



    Edwin A. Locke
    Dean's Professor of Leadership and Motivation (Emeritus)
    Robert H. Smith School of Business
    32122 Canyon Ridge Drive
    Westlake Village, CA 91361
    818 706 9361 (in CA) TEL
    same FAX
    elocke@rhsmith.umd.edu
    http://www.rhsmith.umd.edu
    http://edwinlocke.com


  • 8.  Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    Posted 03-04-2009 14:42
    Puzzle:

    t seems most generations, including ours, believes the next one comes less well trained. Yet society keeps sustaining technological and other progress.
    _______________________
    Alfredo Behrens
    www.alfredobehrens.com

    Twitter: http://twitter.com/0800Alfredo

    Lecturing at
    http://www.fia.com.br/internationalmba/

    Now also at Stanford University Press
    http://www.sup.org/book.cgi?book_id=6014

    Melhor livro brasileiro de negócios, confira:
    http://www.alfredobehrens.com/recomendacoesdolivro2




    On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 3:40 PM, Edwin Locke <elocke@rhsmith.umd.edu> wrote:

    it is very clear that incompetent teaching is rampant in our culture--students come to college who are virtually illiterate. They cannot write, cannot read (except for 4 letter words--I don't just mean swear words), cannot spell and do not even know basic grammar. And they think cheating is normal and acceptable.




  • 9.  Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    Posted 03-04-2009 14:49
    Edwin, I thought that Martin Evans' article was an important contribution, both to one's understanding of intrinsic, as compared to extrinsic, rewards/motivation.
     
    I agree with you that many college/university students are ill-prepared.  However, I don't blame all of that on poor teaching or inadequate evaluation systems (of teachers), as, it appears, that you do.  And, while I agree that the level of exhibited morality, across our nation, has diminished, I think the problem is far deeper than putting the blame on the teachers.  I do hope, however, as it seems that you are suggesting, that teachers put a high value on teaching ethics in each of their classes.  The Bernard Madoff case is a prime example of the low level of morality that is being practiced, by many, in our society.
     
    Sincerely,
     
    Karl Strandberg
    Lecturer in OB & Leadership
    California State University Dominguez Hills
     
    -------Original Message-------
     
    Date: 3/4/2009 11:21:56 AM
    Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation
     

    In reply to Martin Evans:

    I don't have a solution for a single best way to motivate teachers, but it is very clear that incompetent teaching is rampant in our culture--students come to college who are virtually illiterate. They cannot write, cannot read (except for 4 letter words--I don't just mean swear words), cannot spell and do not even know basic grammar. And they think cheating is normal and acceptable.

    The bottom line is that teachers are not properly trained, not properly evaluated, and thanks to the NTU they know that it is almost impossible to get fired.

    To think that "intrinsic motivation" is going to solve this is like thinking the tooth fairy will change your flat tire.

    At deepest root all this represents the decline of our culture, especially the gradual destruction of all standards in almost every field.

    As a minimum we need to insist on much higher standards in our schools and some form of merit system. It is no accident that we are pretty much at the bottom compared to all advanced countries in terms of student competence.



    Edwin A. Locke

    Dean's Professor of Leadership and Motivation (Emeritus)
    Robert H. Smith School of Business
    32122 Canyon Ridge Drive
    Westlake Village, CA 91361
    818 706 9361 (in CA) TEL
    same FAX

    elocke@rhsmith.umd.edu
    http://www.rhsmith.umd.edu
    http://edwinlocke.com

     


  • 10.  Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    Posted 03-04-2009 15:39
    Although I'm usually loathe to get involved in this sort of discussion, I have to agree with Ed Locke on this issue. Is there any field that has fewer direct consequences for performing well or poorly than education? The system provides guaranteed employment with no measurement of any kind, which means that our education system is often set up around the preferences of teachers independent of the needs of students. Moreover, the evidence for the performance damaging effects of extrinsic rewards in work settings has not been very persuasive, whereas the evidence that concrete measurable goals coupled with appropriate cash incentives can improve performance is abundant.

    As an example of empirical data specific to this issue, David Figlio and Lawrence Kenn provided an overview of research on incentives and school performance and concluded that student test scores are higher in schools that offer individual financial incentives for teacher performance, especially in schools where parents are unlikely to be involved in student education. In other words, it is the students who are in the most disadvantaged homes who get the most benefit from teacher incentives.

    Figlio, D.N., & Kenny, L.W. (2007). Individual teacher incentives and student performance. Journal of Public Economics, 91, 901-914.


    -----Original Message-----
    From: Organizational Behavior Division Listserv on behalf of Karl Strandberg
    Sent: Wed 3/4/2009 2:48 PM
    To: OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    Edwin, I thought that Martin Evans' article was an important contribution, both to one's understanding of intrinsic, as compared to extrinsic, rewards/motivation.

    I agree with you that many college/university students are ill-prepared. However, I don't blame all of that on poor teaching or inadequate evaluation systems (of teachers), as, it appears, that you do. And, while I agree that the level of exhibited morality, across our nation, has diminished, I think the problem is far deeper than putting the blame on the teachers. I do hope, however, as it seems that you are suggesting, that teachers put a high value on teaching ethics in each of their classes. The Bernard Madoff case is a prime example of the low level of morality that is being practiced, by many, in our society.

    Sincerely,

    Karl Strandberg
    Lecturer in OB & Leadership
    California State University Dominguez Hills

    -------Original Message-------

    From: Edwin Locke <mailto:elocke@RHSMITH.UMD.EDU>
    Date: 3/4/2009 11:21:56 AM
    To: OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation


    In reply to Martin Evans:

    I don't have a solution for a single best way to motivate teachers, but it is very clear that incompetent teaching is rampant in our culture--students come to college who are virtually illiterate. They cannot write, cannot read (except for 4 letter words--I don't just mean swear words), cannot spell and do not even know basic grammar. And they think cheating is normal and acceptable.

    The bottom line is that teachers are not properly trained, not properly evaluated, and thanks to the NTU they know that it is almost impossible to get fired.

    To think that "intrinsic motivation" is going to solve this is like thinking the tooth fairy will change your flat tire.

    At deepest root all this represents the decline of our culture, especially the gradual destruction of all standards in almost every field.

    As a minimum we need to insist on much higher standards in our schools and some form of merit system. It is no accident that we are pretty much at the bottom compared to all advanced countries in terms of student competence.



    Edwin A. Locke
    Dean's Professor of Leadership and Motivation (Emeritus)
    Robert H. Smith School of Business
    32122 Canyon Ridge Drive
    Westlake Village, CA 91361
    818 706 9361 (in CA) TEL
    same FAX
    elocke@rhsmith.umd.edu <mailto:elocke@rhsmith.umd.edu>
    http://www.rhsmith.umd.edu <http://www.rhsmith.umd.edu/>
    http://edwinlocke.com <http://edwinlocke.com/>



    <http://www.incredimail.com/index.asp?id=109094&rui=104440663>


  • 11.  Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    Posted 03-04-2009 15:48

    Karl: see below-- Ed



    Edwin A. Locke

    Dean's Professor of Leadership and Motivation (Emeritus)
    Robert H. Smith School of Business
    32122 Canyon Ridge Drive
    Westlake Village, CA 91361
    818 706 9361 (in CA) TEL
    same FAX

    elocke@rhsmith.umd.edu
    http://www.rhsmith.umd.edu
    http://edwinlocke.com
    Karl Strandberg <modecon@EARTHLINK.NET>



    To

    <OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU>

    cc


    Subject

    Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation
    Edwin, I thought that Martin Evans' article was an important contribution, both to one's understanding of intrinsic, as compared to extrinsic, rewards/motivation.

    [I don't think so--there is a very big literature on this--in the real world intrinsic, achievement and extrinsic motivation all work in concert--to varying degrees--one type alone will not do the trick]

    I agree with you that many college/university students are ill-prepared. However, I don't blame all of that on poor teaching or inadequate evaluation systems (of teachers), as, it appears, that you do.

    [No--as I said the deeper root is the decline of the culture--though I did not say why in my post--the cause is most profoundly the assault on reason which has been going on for over 100 years in philosophy]

    And, while I agree that the level of exhibited morality, across our nation, has diminished, I think the problem is far deeper than putting the blame on the teachers.

    [so do I -I put the blame on philosophy]

    I do hope, however, as it seems that you are suggesting, that teachers put a high value on teaching ethics in each of their classes. The Bernard Madoff case is a prime example of the low level of morality that is being practiced, by many, in our society.

    [yes, but the problem is that no one--except Ayn Rand, whom I agree with--has validated a non mystical code of morality so what we have now, aside from religion, is mostly skepticism and subjectivism--this will not work]

    Sincerely,

    Best, Ed Locke
    -------Original Message-------

    From: Edwin Locke
    Date: 3/4/2009 11:21:56 AM
    To: OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    In reply to Martin Evans:

    I don't have a solution for a single best way to motivate teachers, but it is very clear that incompetent teaching is rampant in our culture--students come to college who are virtually illiterate. They cannot write, cannot read (except for 4 letter words--I don't just mean swear words), cannot spell and do not even know basic grammar. And they think cheating is normal and acceptable.

    The bottom line is that teachers are not properly trained, not properly evaluated, and thanks to the NTU they know that it is almost impossible to get fired.

    To think that "intrinsic motivation" is going to solve this is like thinking the tooth fairy will change your flat tire.

    At deepest root all this represents the decline of our culture, especially the gradual destruction of all standards in almost every field.

    As a minimum we need to insist on much higher standards in our schools and some form of merit system. It is no accident that we are pretty much at the bottom compared to all advanced countries in terms of student competence.



    Edwin A. Locke

    Dean's Professor of Leadership and Motivation (Emeritus)
    Robert H. Smith School of Business
    32122 Canyon Ridge Drive
    Westlake Village, CA 91361
    818 706 9361 (in CA) TEL
    same FAX

    elocke@rhsmith.umd.edu
    http://www.rhsmith.umd.edu
    http://edwinlocke.com




  • 12.  Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    Posted 03-04-2009 15:53

    I think the objective evidence proves that we badly trained in relation to other nations--so how do we survive?

    1. immigration

    2. the small % of people who are well trained, often in private schools, who pull the rest along with them--but this only goes so far.

    I think the present administration will pretty much destroy us because while pumping paper into the economy (which will cause big time inflation in the end) they are doing many other things to retard production which is the only way out of this mess--if people are not free to produce we are doomed-

    (NO I did not like Bush either).

    E.L.



    Edwin A. Locke

    Dean's Professor of Leadership and Motivation (Emeritus)
    Robert H. Smith School of Business
    32122 Canyon Ridge Drive
    Westlake Village, CA 91361
    818 706 9361 (in CA) TEL
    same FAX

    elocke@rhsmith.umd.edu
    http://www.rhsmith.umd.edu
    http://edwinlocke.com
    Alfredo Behrens <alfredobehrens@GMAIL.COM>



    To

    <OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU>

    cc


    Subject

    Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    Puzzle:

    t seems most generations, including ours, believes the next one comes less well trained. Yet society keeps sustaining technological and other progress.
    _______________________
    Alfredo Behrens

    www.alfredobehrens.com

    Twitter:
    http://twitter.com/0800Alfredo

    Lecturing at

    http://www.fia.com.br/internationalmba/

    Now also at Stanford University Press

    http://www.sup.org/book.cgi?book_id=6014

    Melhor livro brasileiro de negócios, confira:

    http://www.alfredobehrens.com/recomendacoesdolivro2




    On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 3:40 PM, Edwin Locke <elocke@rhsmith.umd.edu> wrote:

      it is very clear that incompetent teaching is rampant in our culture--students come to college who are virtually illiterate. They cannot write, cannot read (except for 4 letter words--I don't just mean swear words), cannot spell and do not even know basic grammar. And they think cheating is normal and acceptable.



  • 13.  Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    Posted 03-04-2009 16:09
    May I ask, what sources are discussants in this email stream thinking of when they suggest that the real-world evidence does not support an undermining effect of extrinsic rewards on intrinsic motivation? I also suspect that people often overstate the presumed undermining effect in business applications, but am not sure where the best evidence lies. Thanks...

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Organizational Behavior Division Listserv [mailto:OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of John D. Kammeyer-Mueller
    Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 3:39 PM
    To: OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    Although I'm usually loathe to get involved in this sort of discussion, I have to agree with Ed Locke on this issue. Is there any field that has fewer direct consequences for performing well or poorly than education? The system provides guaranteed employment with no measurement of any kind, which means that our education system is often set up around the preferences of teachers independent of the needs of students. Moreover, the evidence for the performance damaging effects of extrinsic rewards in work settings has not been very persuasive, whereas the evidence that concrete measurable goals coupled with appropriate cash incentives can improve performance is abundant.

    As an example of empirical data specific to this issue, David Figlio and Lawrence Kenn provided an overview of research on incentives and school performance and concluded that student test scores are higher in schools that offer individual financial incentives for teacher performance, especially in schools where parents are unlikely to be involved in student education. In other words, it is the students who are in the most disadvantaged homes who get the most benefit from teacher incentives.

    Figlio, D.N., & Kenny, L.W. (2007). Individual teacher incentives and student performance. Journal of Public Economics, 91, 901-914.


    -----Original Message-----
    From: Organizational Behavior Division Listserv on behalf of Karl Strandberg
    Sent: Wed 3/4/2009 2:48 PM
    To: OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    Edwin, I thought that Martin Evans' article was an important contribution, both to one's understanding of intrinsic, as compared to extrinsic, rewards/motivation.

    I agree with you that many college/university students are ill-prepared. However, I don't blame all of that on poor teaching or inadequate evaluation systems (of teachers), as, it appears, that you do. And, while I agree that the level of exhibited morality, across our nation, has diminished, I think the problem is far deeper than putting the blame on the teachers. I do hope, however, as it seems that you are suggesting, that teachers put a high value on teaching ethics in each of their classes. The Bernard Madoff case is a prime example of the low level of morality that is being practiced, by many, in our society.

    Sincerely,

    Karl Strandberg
    Lecturer in OB & Leadership
    California State University Dominguez Hills

    -------Original Message-------

    From: Edwin Locke <mailto:elocke@RHSMITH.UMD.EDU>
    Date: 3/4/2009 11:21:56 AM
    To: OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation


    In reply to Martin Evans:

    I don't have a solution for a single best way to motivate teachers, but it is very clear that incompetent teaching is rampant in our culture--students come to college who are virtually illiterate. They cannot write, cannot read (except for 4 letter words--I don't just mean swear words), cannot spell and do not even know basic grammar. And they think cheating is normal and acceptable.

    The bottom line is that teachers are not properly trained, not properly evaluated, and thanks to the NTU they know that it is almost impossible to get fired.

    To think that "intrinsic motivation" is going to solve this is like thinking the tooth fairy will change your flat tire.

    At deepest root all this represents the decline of our culture, especially the gradual destruction of all standards in almost every field.

    As a minimum we need to insist on much higher standards in our schools and some form of merit system. It is no accident that we are pretty much at the bottom compared to all advanced countries in terms of student competence.



    Edwin A. Locke
    Dean's Professor of Leadership and Motivation (Emeritus)
    Robert H. Smith School of Business
    32122 Canyon Ridge Drive
    Westlake Village, CA 91361
    818 706 9361 (in CA) TEL
    same FAX
    elocke@rhsmith.umd.edu <mailto:elocke@rhsmith.umd.edu>
    http://www.rhsmith.umd.edu <http://www.rhsmith.umd.edu/>
    http://edwinlocke.com <http://edwinlocke.com/>



    <http://www.incredimail.com/index.asp?id=109094&rui=104440663>


  • 14.  Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    Posted 03-04-2009 16:11
    One Answer to the Puzzle:  Affirming the consequent is a logical fallacy.
     
    Premise (widely accepted): If our secondary education system is doing its job, our society will continue to sustain technological and other progress.
     
    However, we cannot use the fact that we observe progress to conclude that the secondary education system is doing its job.  Other factors can certainly be contributing to the current progress we observe.
     
    Regards,
    James Emery
    Duke University
     
     
    ----- Original Message -----
    Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 2:42 PM
    Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    Puzzle:

    t seems most generations, including ours, believes the next one comes less well trained. Yet society keeps sustaining technological and other progress.
    _______________________
    Alfredo Behrens
    www.alfredobehrens.com

    Twitter: http://twitter.com/0800Alfredo

    Lecturing at
    http://www.fia.com.br/internationalmba/

    Now also at Stanford University Press
    http://www.sup.org/book.cgi?book_id=6014

    Melhor livro brasileiro de negócios, confira:
    http://www.alfredobehrens.com/recomendacoesdolivro2




    On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 3:40 PM, Edwin Locke <elocke@rhsmith.umd.edu> wrote:

    it is very clear that incompetent teaching is rampant in our culture--students come to college who are virtually illiterate. They cannot write, cannot read (except for 4 letter words--I don't just mean swear words), cannot spell and do not even know basic grammar. And they think cheating is normal and acceptable.




  • 15.  Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    Posted 03-04-2009 17:48
    I have found the Concern for Self and Concern for Others duality to be quite useful in teaching ethical decision making.  Especially if one adds 'Transformationalism' (High Concern for Others and High Concern for Self) to the other decision making styles: Egoism (Low Concern for Others and High Concern for Self; Utilitarianism (Medium Concern for Others and Medium Concern for Self - "The greatest good for the greatest number."); Altruism (High Concern for Others and Low Concern for Self - "Selfless".  The Transformationalism style is informed by the work of Burns and Bass on Transformational leadership: Treat others as you want to be treated; Focus on the development of motivation and morality of others; Focus on the growth and development of others' abilities and knowledge; Help develop others to move beyond self-interest and focus on the social good; reciprocal relationship between leaders and subordinates.  Of course, this model is a teleological model, based upon the consequences of the decisions that are made and their impact on others.
     
    I believe, if we had a greater number of leaders who were practicing the Transformational style of ethical decision making that we would realize a significant decrease in the number of instances like Enron, WorldCom, BroadCom, Adelphia and the Bernard Madoff debacle.
     
    Karl Strandberg
    Lecturer, California State University Dominguez Hills
     
     
    -------Original Message-------
     
    Date: 3/4/2009 1:01:18 PM
    Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation
     

    Karl: see below-- Ed



    Edwin A. Locke

    Dean's Professor of Leadership and Motivation (Emeritus)
    Robert H. Smith School of Business
    32122 Canyon Ridge Drive
    Westlake Village, CA 91361
    818 706 9361 (in CA) TEL
    same FAX

    elocke@rhsmith.umd.edu
    http://www.rhsmith.umd.edu
    http://edwinlocke.com
    Karl Strandberg <modecon@EARTHLINK.NET>



    To

    <OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU>

    cc


    Subject

    Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation
    Edwin, I thought that Martin Evans' article was an important contribution, both to one's understanding of intrinsic, as compared to extrinsic, rewards/motivation.

    [I don't think so--there is a very big literature on this--in the real world intrinsic, achievement and extrinsic motivation all work in concert--to varying degrees--one type alone will not do the trick]

    I agree with you that many college/university students are ill-prepared. However, I don't blame all of that on poor teaching or inadequate evaluation systems (of teachers), as, it appears, that you do.

    [No--as I said the deeper root is the decline of the culture--though I did not say why in my post--the cause is most profoundly the assault on reason which has been going on for over 100 years in philosophy]

    And, while I agree that the level of exhibited morality, across our nation, has diminished, I think the problem is far deeper than putting the blame on the teachers.

    [so do I -I put the blame on philosophy]

    I do hope, however, as it seems that you are suggesting, that teachers put a high value on teaching ethics in each of their classes. The Bernard Madoff case is a prime example of the low level of morality that is being practiced, by many, in our society.

    [yes, but the problem is that no one--except Ayn Rand, whom I agree with--has validated a non mystical code of morality so what we have now, aside from religion, is mostly skepticism and subjectivism--this will not work]

    Sincerely,

    Best, Ed Locke
    -------Original Message-------

    From: Edwin Locke
    Date: 3/4/2009 11:21:56 AM
    To: OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    In reply to Martin Evans:

    I don't have a solution for a single best way to motivate teachers, but it is very clear that incompetent teaching is rampant in our culture--students come to college who are virtually illiterate. They cannot write, cannot read (except for 4 letter words--I don't just mean swear words), cannot spell and do not even know basic grammar. And they think cheating is normal and acceptable.

    The bottom line is that teachers are not properly trained, not properly evaluated, and thanks to the NTU they know that it is almost impossible to get fired.

    To think that "intrinsic motivation" is going to solve this is like thinking the tooth fairy will change your flat tire.

    At deepest root all this represents the decline of our culture, especially the gradual destruction of all standards in almost every field.

    As a minimum we need to insist on much higher standards in our schools and some form of merit system. It is no accident that we are pretty much at the bottom compared to all advanced countries in terms of student competence.



    Edwin A. Locke

    Dean's Professor of Leadership and Motivation (Emeritus)
    Robert H. Smith School of Business
    32122 Canyon Ridge Drive
    Westlake Village, CA 91361
    818 706 9361 (in CA) TEL
    same FAX

    elocke@rhsmith.umd.edu
    http://www.rhsmith.umd.edu
    http://edwinlocke.com


     


  • 16.  Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    Posted 03-04-2009 18:49

    In reply to Thomas Bateman re: real world evidence for effects of incentives on intrinsic motivation. First I want to point our that most of the studies have been lab studies. And Deci's experiements do not replicate business--they measured resumption of an interrupted task as the DV whereas in the real world you simply look at overall performance. There have been bitter debates/exchanges in Psychol. Bull. over the totality of the research. (Some field research has taken place in classrooms).

    The best person to read re: field situations is Teresa Amabile at Harvard though her field work mostly involves case studies. I think her view is that goals and incentives themselves are not the problem; it matters how they are used, e.g., a good method is to assign goals and let employees figure out how to attain them. And she does not recommend having people work without merit pay in some form. As I said before, in the real world, intrinsic, achievement and extrinsic motivation are all operative. (Incidentally, Deci does not distinguish between liking for the task and liking to meet standards--he calls them both intrinsic--not a good idea--the second should be called achievement motivation.).

    Bandura has critiqued the concept of intrinsic motivation at length, esp. in his 1986 book as have many others. Let me say that I strongly favor people loving their work tasks--but that is not the whole story.



    Edwin A. Locke

    Dean's Professor of Leadership and Motivation (Emeritus)
    Robert H. Smith School of Business
    32122 Canyon Ridge Drive
    Westlake Village, CA 91361
    818 706 9361 (in CA) TEL
    same FAX

    elocke@rhsmith.umd.edu
    http://www.rhsmith.umd.edu
    http://edwinlocke.com
    "Bateman, Thomas" <tsb3c@COMM.VIRGINIA.EDU>



    To

    <OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU>

    cc


    Subject

    Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    May I ask, what sources are discussants in this email stream thinking of when they suggest that the real-world evidence does not support an undermining effect of extrinsic rewards on intrinsic motivation? I also suspect that people often overstate the presumed undermining effect in business applications, but am not sure where the best evidence lies. Thanks...

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Organizational Behavior Division Listserv [mailto:OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of John D. Kammeyer-Mueller
    Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 3:39 PM
    To: OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    Although I'm usually loathe to get involved in this sort of discussion, I have to agree with Ed Locke on this issue. Is there any field that has fewer direct consequences for performing well or poorly than education? The system provides guaranteed employment with no measurement of any kind, which means that our education system is often set up around the preferences of teachers independent of the needs of students. Moreover, the evidence for the performance damaging effects of extrinsic rewards in work settings has not been very persuasive, whereas the evidence that concrete measurable goals coupled with appropriate cash incentives can improve performance is abundant.

    As an example of empirical data specific to this issue, David Figlio and Lawrence Kenn provided an overview of research on incentives and school performance and concluded that student test scores are higher in schools that offer individual financial incentives for teacher performance, especially in schools where parents are unlikely to be involved in student education. In other words, it is the students who are in the most disadvantaged homes who get the most benefit from teacher incentives.

    Figlio, D.N., & Kenny, L.W. (2007). Individual teacher incentives and student performance. Journal of Public Economics, 91, 901-914.


    -----Original Message-----
    From: Organizational Behavior Division Listserv on behalf of Karl Strandberg
    Sent: Wed 3/4/2009 2:48 PM
    To: OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    Edwin, I thought that Martin Evans' article was an important contribution, both to one's understanding of intrinsic, as compared to extrinsic, rewards/motivation.

    I agree with you that many college/university students are ill-prepared.  However, I don't blame all of that on poor teaching or inadequate evaluation systems (of teachers), as, it appears, that you do.  And, while I agree that the level of exhibited morality, across our nation, has diminished, I think the problem is far deeper than putting the blame on the teachers.  I do hope, however, as it seems that you are suggesting, that teachers put a high value on teaching ethics in each of their classes.  The Bernard Madoff case is a prime example of the low level of morality that is being practiced, by many, in our society.

    Sincerely,

    Karl Strandberg
    Lecturer in OB & Leadership
    California State University Dominguez Hills

    -------Original Message-------

    From: Edwin Locke <
    mailto:elocke@RHSMITH.UMD.EDU>
    Date: 3/4/2009 11:21:56 AM
    To: OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation


    In reply to Martin Evans:

    I don't have a solution for a single best way to motivate teachers, but it is very clear that incompetent teaching is rampant in our culture--students come to college who are virtually illiterate. They cannot write, cannot read (except for 4 letter words--I don't just mean swear words), cannot spell and do not even know basic grammar. And they think cheating is normal and acceptable.

    The bottom line is that teachers are not properly trained, not properly evaluated, and thanks to the NTU they know that it is almost impossible to get fired.

    To think that "intrinsic motivation" is going to solve this is like thinking the tooth fairy will change your flat tire.

    At deepest root all this represents the decline of our culture, especially the gradual destruction of all standards in almost every field.

    As a minimum we need to insist on much higher standards in our schools and some form of merit system. It is no accident that we are pretty much at the bottom compared to all advanced countries in terms of student competence.



    Edwin A. Locke
    Dean's Professor of Leadership and Motivation (Emeritus)
    Robert H. Smith School of Business
    32122 Canyon Ridge Drive
    Westlake Village, CA 91361
    818 706 9361 (in CA) TEL
    same FAX
    elocke@rhsmith.umd.edu <
    mailto:elocke@rhsmith.umd.edu>
    http://www.rhsmith.umd.edu <http://www.rhsmith.umd.edu/>
    http://edwinlocke.com <http://edwinlocke.com/>  



    <
    http://www.incredimail.com/index.asp?id=109094&rui=104440663>



  • 17.  Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    Posted 03-04-2009 18:58

    This is just a small sampling of the literature, but I was thinking of the following reviews that show that performance levels and commitment to goals are higher when rewards are used:

    Locke, E. A., Shaw, K. N., Saari, L. M., Latham, G.P, (1981). Goal setting and task performance: 1969-1980. Psychological Bulletin, 90, 125-152.

    Locke, E. A., Latham, G. P., & Erez, M. (1988).The determinants of goal commitment. Academy of Management Review, 13, 23-39.

    Contingent pay also increases performance at the organizational level:

    Gerhart, B., & Milkovich, G. T. (1990). Organizational differences in managerial compensation and financial performance. Academy of Management Journal, 33, 663-691.

    And contingent pay is more attractive to good performers and those who are more achievement oriented:

    Harrison D.A., Virick M., & William S. (1996). Working without a net: time, performance,
    and turnover under maximally contingent rewards. Journal of Applied Psychology, 81, 331–45.

    Cable D.M., & Judge T.A. 1994. Pay preferences and job search decisions: a personorganization
    fit perspective. Personnel Psychology, 47, 317–48.

    So, whether intrinsic motivation is affected or not, *performance* is higher when rewards are established for meeting performance goals. For the classic demonstration showing even intrinsic motivation may not be undermined if rewards are presented in the right context:

    Eisenberger, R., Rhoades, L., & Cameron, J. (1999). Does pay for performance increase or decrease perceived self-determination and intrinsic motivation? Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 77, 1026-1040.

    The alternative evidence on rewards reducing self-reported motivation found by Deci, Ryan and colleagues is far weaker among college students, and was not found for performance contingent rewards. So, not to put too fine a point on it, the dangers of extrinsic rewards have been amply demonstrated for children finishing puzzles when reward is independent of performance, whereas the benefits of setting rewards for achieving performance targets have been amply demonstrated among working adults.

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Organizational Behavior Division Listserv on behalf of Bateman, Thomas
    Sent: Wed 3/4/2009 4:08 PM
    To: OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    May I ask, what sources are discussants in this email stream thinking of when they suggest that the real-world evidence does not support an undermining effect of extrinsic rewards on intrinsic motivation? I also suspect that people often overstate the presumed undermining effect in business applications, but am not sure where the best evidence lies. Thanks...

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Organizational Behavior Division Listserv [mailto:OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of John D. Kammeyer-Mueller
    Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 3:39 PM
    To: OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    Although I'm usually loathe to get involved in this sort of discussion, I have to agree with Ed Locke on this issue. Is there any field that has fewer direct consequences for performing well or poorly than education? The system provides guaranteed employment with no measurement of any kind, which means that our education system is often set up around the preferences of teachers independent of the needs of students. Moreover, the evidence for the performance damaging effects of extrinsic rewards in work settings has not been very persuasive, whereas the evidence that concrete measurable goals coupled with appropriate cash incentives can improve performance is abundant.

    As an example of empirical data specific to this issue, David Figlio and Lawrence Kenn provided an overview of research on incentives and school performance and concluded that student test scores are higher in schools that offer individual financial incentives for teacher performance, especially in schools where parents are unlikely to be involved in student education. In other words, it is the students who are in the most disadvantaged homes who get the most benefit from teacher incentives.

    Figlio, D.N., & Kenny, L.W. (2007). Individual teacher incentives and student performance. Journal of Public Economics, 91, 901-914.


    -----Original Message-----
    From: Organizational Behavior Division Listserv on behalf of Karl Strandberg
    Sent: Wed 3/4/2009 2:48 PM
    To: OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    Edwin, I thought that Martin Evans' article was an important contribution, both to one's understanding of intrinsic, as compared to extrinsic, rewards/motivation.

    I agree with you that many college/university students are ill-prepared.  However, I don't blame all of that on poor teaching or inadequate evaluation systems (of teachers), as, it appears, that you do.  And, while I agree that the level of exhibited morality, across our nation, has diminished, I think the problem is far deeper than putting the blame on the teachers.  I do hope, however, as it seems that you are suggesting, that teachers put a high value on teaching ethics in each of their classes.  The Bernard Madoff case is a prime example of the low level of morality that is being practiced, by many, in our society.

    Sincerely,

    Karl Strandberg
    Lecturer in OB & Leadership
    California State University Dominguez Hills

    -------Original Message-------

    From: Edwin Locke <mailto:elocke@RHSMITH.UMD.EDU>
    Date: 3/4/2009 11:21:56 AM
    To: OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation


    In reply to Martin Evans:

    I don't have a solution for a single best way to motivate teachers, but it is very clear that incompetent teaching is rampant in our culture--students come to college who are virtually illiterate. They cannot write, cannot read (except for 4 letter words--I don't just mean swear words), cannot spell and do not even know basic grammar. And they think cheating is normal and acceptable.

    The bottom line is that teachers are not properly trained, not properly evaluated, and thanks to the NTU they know that it is almost impossible to get fired.

    To think that "intrinsic motivation" is going to solve this is like thinking the tooth fairy will change your flat tire.

    At deepest root all this represents the decline of our culture, especially the gradual destruction of all standards in almost every field.

    As a minimum we need to insist on much higher standards in our schools and some form of merit system. It is no accident that we are pretty much at the bottom compared to all advanced countries in terms of student competence.



    Edwin A. Locke
    Dean's Professor of Leadership and Motivation (Emeritus)
    Robert H. Smith School of Business
    32122 Canyon Ridge Drive
    Westlake Village, CA 91361
    818 706 9361 (in CA) TEL
    same FAX
    elocke@rhsmith.umd.edu <mailto:elocke@rhsmith.umd.edu>
    http://www.rhsmith.umd.edu <http://www.rhsmith.umd.edu/>
    http://edwinlocke.com <http://edwinlocke.com/

           
                   
     <http://www.incredimail.com/index.asp?id=109094&rui=104440663>



  • 18.  Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    Posted 03-05-2009 04:39

    I suggest to read Marylène Gagné who do a bridge between Deci and Locke : we can do it !


    Gagné, M., & Forest, J. (2008). The study of compensation systems through the lens of self-determination theory: Reconciling 35 years of debate. Canadian Psychology, 49, 225-232.

    Gagné, M., & Deci, E. L. (2005). Self-determination theory as a new framework for understanding organizational behavior. Journal of Organizational Behavior, 26, 331-362.

    Pr. Patrice Roussel

    Université de Toulouse, IAE

    Dean GRACCO CNRS, LIRHE

    http://gracco.univ-tlse1.fr

     

    De : Organizational Behavior Division Listserv [mailto:OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] De la part de Edwin Locke
    Envoyé : jeudi 5 mars 2009 00:49
    À : OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Objet : Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

     

    In reply to Thomas Bateman re: real world evidence for effects of incentives on intrinsic motivation. First I want to point our that most of the studies have been lab studies. And Deci's experiements do not replicate business--they measured resumption of an interrupted task as the DV whereas in the real world you simply look at overall performance. There have been bitter debates/exchanges in Psychol. Bull. over the totality of the research. (Some field research has taken place in classrooms).

    The best person to read re: field situations is Teresa Amabile at Harvard though her field work mostly involves case studies. I think her view is that goals and incentives themselves are not the problem; it matters how they are used, e.g., a good method is to assign goals and let employees figure out how to attain them. And she does not recommend having people work without merit pay in some form. As I said before, in the real world, intrinsic, achievement and extrinsic motivation are all operative. (Incidentally, Deci does not distinguish between liking for the task and liking to meet standards--he calls them both intrinsic--not a good idea--the second should be called achievement motivation.).

    Bandura has critiqued the concept of intrinsic motivation at length, esp. in his 1986 book as have many others. Let me say that I strongly favor people loving their work tasks--but that is not the whole story.



    Edwin A. Locke

    Dean's Professor of Leadership and Motivation (Emeritus)
    Robert H. Smith School of Business
    32122 Canyon Ridge Drive
    Westlake Village, CA 91361
    818 706 9361 (in CA) TEL
    same FAX

    elocke@rhsmith.umd.edu
    http://www.rhsmith.umd.edu
    http://edwinlocke.com
    "Bateman, Thomas" <tsb3c@COMM.VIRGINIA.EDU>

    "Bateman, Thomas" <tsb3c@COMM.VIRGINIA.EDU>
    Sent by: Organizational Behavior Division Listserv <OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU>

    03/04/2009 01:12 PM

    Please respond to
    Organizational Behavior Division Listserv <OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU>

    To


    <OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU>

    cc

    Subject


    Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

     


    May I ask, what sources are discussants in this email stream thinking of when they suggest that the real-world evidence does not support an undermining effect of extrinsic rewards on intrinsic motivation? I also suspect that people often overstate the presumed undermining effect in business applications, but am not sure where the best evidence lies. Thanks...

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Organizational Behavior Division Listserv [mailto:OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of John D. Kammeyer-Mueller
    Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 3:39 PM
    To: OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    Although I'm usually loathe to get involved in this sort of discussion, I have to agree with Ed Locke on this issue. Is there any field that has fewer direct consequences for performing well or poorly than education? The system provides guaranteed employment with no measurement of any kind, which means that our education system is often set up around the preferences of teachers independent of the needs of students. Moreover, the evidence for the performance damaging effects of extrinsic rewards in work settings has not been very persuasive, whereas the evidence that concrete measurable goals coupled with appropriate cash incentives can improve performance is abundant.

    As an example of empirical data specific to this issue, David Figlio and Lawrence Kenn provided an overview of research on incentives and school performance and concluded that student test scores are higher in schools that offer individual financial incentives for teacher performance, especially in schools where parents are unlikely to be involved in student education. In other words, it is the students who are in the most disadvantaged homes who get the most benefit from teacher incentives.

    Figlio, D.N., & Kenny, L.W. (2007). Individual teacher incentives and student performance. Journal of Public Economics, 91, 901-914.


    -----Original Message-----
    From: Organizational Behavior Division Listserv on behalf of Karl Strandberg
    Sent: Wed 3/4/2009 2:48 PM
    To: OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    Edwin, I thought that Martin Evans' article was an important contribution, both to one's understanding of intrinsic, as compared to extrinsic, rewards/motivation.

    I agree with you that many college/university students are ill-prepared.  However, I don't blame all of that on poor teaching or inadequate evaluation systems (of teachers), as, it appears, that you do.  And, while I agree that the level of exhibited morality, across our nation, has diminished, I think the problem is far deeper than putting the blame on the teachers.  I do hope, however, as it seems that you are suggesting, that teachers put a high value on teaching ethics in each of their classes.  The Bernard Madoff case is a prime example of the low level of morality that is being practiced, by many, in our society.

    Sincerely,

    Karl Strandberg
    Lecturer in OB & Leadership
    California State University Dominguez Hills

    -------Original Message-------

    From: Edwin Locke <mailto:elocke@RHSMITH.UMD.EDU>
    Date: 3/4/2009 11:21:56 AM
    To: OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation


    In reply to Martin Evans:

    I don't have a solution for a single best way to motivate teachers, but it is very clear that incompetent teaching is rampant in our culture--students come to college who are virtually illiterate. They cannot write, cannot read (except for 4 letter words--I don't just mean swear words), cannot spell and do not even know basic grammar. And they think cheating is normal and acceptable.

    The bottom line is that teachers are not properly trained, not properly evaluated, and thanks to the NTU they know that it is almost impossible to get fired.

    To think that "intrinsic motivation" is going to solve this is like thinking the tooth fairy will change your flat tire.

    At deepest root all this represents the decline of our culture, especially the gradual destruction of all standards in almost every field.

    As a minimum we need to insist on much higher standards in our schools and some form of merit system. It is no accident that we are pretty much at the bottom compared to all advanced countries in terms of student competence.



    Edwin A. Locke
    Dean's Professor of Leadership and Motivation (Emeritus)
    Robert H. Smith School of Business
    32122 Canyon Ridge Drive
    Westlake Village, CA 91361
    818 706 9361 (in CA) TEL
    same FAX
    elocke@rhsmith.umd.edu <mailto:elocke@rhsmith.umd.edu>
    http://www.rhsmith.umd.edu <http://www.rhsmith.umd.edu/>
    http://edwinlocke.com <http://edwinlocke.com/>  



    <http://www.incredimail.com/index.asp?id=109094&rui=104440663>



  • 19.  Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    Posted 03-05-2009 09:39

    Dear OB listserv,

     

    The article mentioned by Dr. Roussel and that Marylène Gagné and I wrote is available directly at: http://www.psych.rochester.edu/SDT/documents/2008_GagneForest_CanPsy.pdf

     

    By reviewing  the literature of the past 35 years on compensation, 2 interestings things that emerged from the literature is that 1) compensation generally do have on a impact on performance quantity but not on performance quality and that 2) compensation can sometimes have a negative (or null) impact on good motivation (intrinsic and identified) and that compensation can sometimes increase the level of less adaptive motivation (introjected and extrinsic).

     

    In line with Dr. Evans article on teachers and the academic system, it can be true that paying for certain teachers' behaviors will increase the output (e.g., diploma, number of students who progress, etc.) but, sometimes, with a decrement in quality. It can also be presumed that paying for certain teachers' behaviors will in fact increase less-adaptive types of motivation (introjected and extrinsic) which can "increase" (or "dope") performance for a certain short-period of time but, in the long run, will have negative impact, both on the teachers and their students.

     

    Also of interest is a meta-analysis published in 1999 in Psychological Bulletin and which is available at: http://www.psych.rochester.edu/SDT/documents/1999_DeciKoestnerRyan_Meta.pdf

     

    To complete the literature on motivation, another line of research which could be of interest is the one on passion at work. A book chapter is available at : http://www.er.uqam.ca/nobel/r26710/LRCS/papers/125.pdf

     

    Best regards to you all,

     

    Jacques Forest

     

    Jacques Forest, Ph.D.

    Professor

    Organizational psychologist

    Certified Human Resources Professional

    Management department

    UQAM school of management sciences

    Phone: 514-987-3000 #3310

    Email: forest.jacques@uqam.ca

    http://www.orh.uqam.ca/Pages/forest_j_cv.aspx

    De : Organizational Behavior Division Listserv [mailto:OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] De la part de Patrice Roussel
    Envoyé : 5 mars 2009 04:39
    À : OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Objet : Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

     

    I suggest to read Marylène Gagné who do a bridge between Deci and Locke : we can do it !


    Gagné, M., & Forest, J. (2008). The study of compensation systems through the lens of self-determination theory: Reconciling 35 years of debate. Canadian Psychology, 49, 225-232.

    Gagné, M., & Deci, E. L. (2005). Self-determination theory as a new framework for understanding organizational behavior. Journal of Organizational Behavior, 26, 331-362.

    Pr. Patrice Roussel

    Université de Toulouse, IAE

    Dean GRACCO CNRS, LIRHE

    http://gracco.univ-tlse1.fr

     

    De : Organizational Behavior Division Listserv [mailto:OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] De la part de Edwin Locke
    Envoyé : jeudi 5 mars 2009 00:49
    À : OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Objet : Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

     

    In reply to Thomas Bateman re: real world evidence for effects of incentives on intrinsic motivation. First I want to point our that most of the studies have been lab studies. And Deci's experiements do not replicate business--they measured resumption of an interrupted task as the DV whereas in the real world you simply look at overall performance. There have been bitter debates/exchanges in Psychol. Bull. over the totality of the research. (Some field research has taken place in classrooms).

    The best person to read re: field situations is Teresa Amabile at Harvard though her field work mostly involves case studies. I think her view is that goals and incentives themselves are not the problem; it matters how they are used, e.g., a good method is to assign goals and let employees figure out how to attain them. And she does not recommend having people work without merit pay in some form. As I said before, in the real world, intrinsic, achievement and extrinsic motivation are all operative. (Incidentally, Deci does not distinguish between liking for the task and liking to meet standards--he calls them both intrinsic--not a good idea--the second should be called achievement motivation.).

    Bandura has critiqued the concept of intrinsic motivation at length, esp. in his 1986 book as have many others. Let me say that I strongly favor people loving their work tasks--but that is not the whole story.



    Edwin A. Locke

    Dean's Professor of Leadership and Motivation (Emeritus)
    Robert H. Smith School of Business
    32122 Canyon Ridge Drive
    Westlake Village, CA 91361
    818 706 9361 (in CA) TEL
    same FAX

    elocke@rhsmith.umd.edu
    http://www.rhsmith.umd.edu
    http://edwinlocke.com
    "Bateman, Thomas" <tsb3c@COMM.VIRGINIA.EDU>

    "Bateman, Thomas" <tsb3c@COMM.VIRGINIA.EDU>
    Sent by: Organizational Behavior Division Listserv <OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU>

    03/04/2009 01:12 PM

    Please respond to
    Organizational Behavior Division Listserv <OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU>

    To


    <OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU>

    cc

    Subject


    Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

     


    May I ask, what sources are discussants in this email stream thinking of when they suggest that the real-world evidence does not support an undermining effect of extrinsic rewards on intrinsic motivation? I also suspect that people often overstate the presumed undermining effect in business applications, but am not sure where the best evidence lies. Thanks...

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Organizational Behavior Division Listserv [mailto:OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of John D. Kammeyer-Mueller
    Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 3:39 PM
    To: OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    Although I'm usually loathe to get involved in this sort of discussion, I have to agree with Ed Locke on this issue. Is there any field that has fewer direct consequences for performing well or poorly than education? The system provides guaranteed employment with no measurement of any kind, which means that our education system is often set up around the preferences of teachers independent of the needs of students. Moreover, the evidence for the performance damaging effects of extrinsic rewards in work settings has not been very persuasive, whereas the evidence that concrete measurable goals coupled with appropriate cash incentives can improve performance is abundant.

    As an example of empirical data specific to this issue, David Figlio and Lawrence Kenn provided an overview of research on incentives and school performance and concluded that student test scores are higher in schools that offer individual financial incentives for teacher performance, especially in schools where parents are unlikely to be involved in student education. In other words, it is the students who are in the most disadvantaged homes who get the most benefit from teacher incentives.

    Figlio, D.N., & Kenny, L.W. (2007). Individual teacher incentives and student performance. Journal of Public Economics, 91, 901-914.


    -----Original Message-----
    From: Organizational Behavior Division Listserv on behalf of Karl Strandberg
    Sent: Wed 3/4/2009 2:48 PM
    To: OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    Edwin, I thought that Martin Evans' article was an important contribution, both to one's understanding of intrinsic, as compared to extrinsic, rewards/motivation.

    I agree with you that many college/university students are ill-prepared.  However, I don't blame all of that on poor teaching or inadequate evaluation systems (of teachers), as, it appears, that you do.  And, while I agree that the level of exhibited morality, across our nation, has diminished, I think the problem is far deeper than putting the blame on the teachers.  I do hope, however, as it seems that you are suggesting, that teachers put a high value on teaching ethics in each of their classes.  The Bernard Madoff case is a prime example of the low level of morality that is being practiced, by many, in our society.

    Sincerely,

    Karl Strandberg
    Lecturer in OB & Leadership
    California State University Dominguez Hills

    -------Original Message-------

    From: Edwin Locke <mailto:elocke@RHSMITH.UMD.EDU>
    Date: 3/4/2009 11:21:56 AM
    To: OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation


    In reply to Martin Evans:

    I don't have a solution for a single best way to motivate teachers, but it is very clear that incompetent teaching is rampant in our culture--students come to college who are virtually illiterate. They cannot write, cannot read (except for 4 letter words--I don't just mean swear words), cannot spell and do not even know basic grammar. And they think cheating is normal and acceptable.

    The bottom line is that teachers are not properly trained, not properly evaluated, and thanks to the NTU they know that it is almost impossible to get fired.

    To think that "intrinsic motivation" is going to solve this is like thinking the tooth fairy will change your flat tire.

    At deepest root all this represents the decline of our culture, especially the gradual destruction of all standards in almost every field.

    As a minimum we need to insist on much higher standards in our schools and some form of merit system. It is no accident that we are pretty much at the bottom compared to all advanced countries in terms of student competence.



    Edwin A. Locke
    Dean's Professor of Leadership and Motivation (Emeritus)
    Robert H. Smith School of Business
    32122 Canyon Ridge Drive
    Westlake Village, CA 91361
    818 706 9361 (in CA) TEL
    same FAX
    elocke@rhsmith.umd.edu <mailto:elocke@rhsmith.umd.edu>
    http://www.rhsmith.umd.edu <http://www.rhsmith.umd.edu/>
    http://edwinlocke.com <http://edwinlocke.com/>  



    <http://www.incredimail.com/index.asp?id=109094&rui=104440663>



  • 20.  Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    Posted 03-05-2009 12:36
    I understand we receive plenty of email, so I will keep this brief. In
    light of what is going on in the world, this is an important discussion.
    Real estate agents are rewarded based on the value of the homes that they
    sell. Workers in the finance industry are rewarded based on the dollar
    values of their sales as well. Executive bonuses/stock options often
    encourage focus on short-term equity performance. In these systems, what
    type of people advance into leadership roles? People differ in the extent
    to which they are intrinsically motivated, will those love helping their
    customers advance in these systems? Will those who have the long-run best
    interests of the firm (or who consider the ethical implications of their
    deeds) advance? What is performance?

    How do we, as the teachers of the next generation of business leaders,
    teach our students about intrinsic and extrinsic motivation?

    Thanks for considering my thoughts.

    On Mar 4 2009, John D. Kammeyer-Mueller wrote:

    > This is just a small sampling of the literature, but I was thinking of
    > the following reviews that show that performance levels and commitment to
    > goals are higher when rewards are used:
    >
    > Locke, E. A., Shaw, K. N., Saari, L. M., Latham, G.P, (1981). Goal
    > setting and task performance: 1969?-?1980. Psychological Bulletin, 90,
    > 125-152.
    >
    > Locke, E. A., Latham, G. P., & Erez, M. (1988).The determinants of goal
    > commitment. Academy of Management Review, 13, 23-39.
    >
    >Contingent pay also increases performance at the organizational level:
    >
    > Gerhart, B., & Milkovich, G. T. (1990). Organizational differences in
    > managerial compensation and financial performance. Academy of Management
    > Journal, 33, 663-691.
    >
    > And contingent pay is more attractive to good performers and those who
    > are more achievement oriented:
    >
    > Harrison D.A., Virick M., & William S. (1996). Working without a net:
    > time, performance,
    > and turnover under maximally contingent rewards. Journal of Applied
    > Psychology, 81, 331–45.
    >
    > Cable D.M., & Judge T.A. 1994. Pay preferences and job search decisions:
    > a personorganization
    >fit perspective. Personnel Psychology, 47, 317–48.
    >
    > So, whether intrinsic motivation is affected or not, *performance* is
    > higher when rewards are established for meeting performance goals. For
    > the classic demonstration showing even intrinsic motivation may not be
    > undermined if rewards are presented in the right context:
    >
    > Eisenberger, R., Rhoades, L., & Cameron, J. (1999). Does pay for
    > performance increase or decrease perceived self?-?determination and
    > intrinsic motivation? Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 77,
    > 1026-1040.
    >
    > The alternative evidence on rewards reducing self-reported motivation
    > found by Deci, Ryan and colleagues is far weaker among college students,
    > and was not found for performance contingent rewards. So, not to put too
    > fine a point on it, the dangers of extrinsic rewards have been amply
    > demonstrated for children finishing puzzles when reward is independent of
    > performance, whereas the benefits of setting rewards for achieving
    > performance targets have been amply demonstrated among working adults.
    >
    >-----Original Message-----
    > From: Organizational Behavior Division Listserv on behalf of Bateman,
    > Thomas
    >Sent: Wed 3/4/2009 4:08 PM
    >To: OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    >Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation
    >
    > May I ask, what sources are discussants in this email stream thinking of
    > when they suggest that the real-world evidence does not support an
    > undermining effect of extrinsic rewards on intrinsic motivation? I also
    > suspect that people often overstate the presumed undermining effect in
    > business applications, but am not sure where the best evidence lies.
    > Thanks...
    >
    >-----Original Message-----
    > From: Organizational Behavior Division Listserv
    > [mailto:OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of John D. Kammeyer-Mueller
    >Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 3:39 PM
    >To: OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    >Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation
    >
    > Although I'm usually loathe to get involved in this sort of discussion, I
    > have to agree with Ed Locke on this issue. Is there any field that has
    > fewer direct consequences for performing well or poorly than education?
    > The system provides guaranteed employment with no measurement of any
    > kind, which means that our education system is often set up around the
    > preferences of teachers independent of the needs of students. Moreover,
    > the evidence for the performance damaging effects of extrinsic rewards in
    > work settings has not been very persuasive, whereas the evidence that
    > concrete measurable goals coupled with appropriate cash incentives can
    > improve performance is abundant.
    >
    > As an example of empirical data specific to this issue, David Figlio and
    > Lawrence Kenn provided an overview of research on incentives and school
    > performance and concluded that student test scores are higher in schools
    > that offer individual financial incentives for teacher performance,
    > especially in schools where parents are unlikely to be involved in
    > student education. In other words, it is the students who are in the most
    > disadvantaged homes who get the most benefit from teacher incentives.
    >
    > Figlio, D.N., & Kenny, L.W. (2007). Individual teacher incentives and
    > student performance. Journal of Public Economics, 91, 901-914.
    >
    >
    >-----Original Message-----
    > From: Organizational Behavior Division Listserv on behalf of Karl
    > Strandberg
    >Sent: Wed 3/4/2009 2:48 PM
    >To: OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    >Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation
    >
    > Edwin, I thought that Martin Evans' article was an important
    > contribution, both to one's understanding of intrinsic, as compared to
    > extrinsic, rewards/motivation.
    >
    > I agree with you that many college/university students are ill-prepared.
    > However, I don't blame all of that on poor teaching or inadequate
    > evaluation systems (of teachers), as, it appears, that you do. And, while
    > I agree that the level of exhibited morality, across our nation, has
    > diminished, I think the problem is far deeper than putting the blame on
    > the teachers. I do hope, however, as it seems that you are suggesting,
    > that teachers put a high value on teaching ethics in each of their
    > classes. The Bernard Madoff case is a prime example of the low level of
    > morality that is being practiced, by many, in our society.
    >
    >Sincerely,
    >
    >Karl Strandberg
    >Lecturer in OB & Leadership
    >California State University Dominguez Hills
    >
    >-------Original Message-------
    >
    >From: Edwin Locke <mailto:elocke@RHSMITH.UMD.EDU>
    >Date: 3/4/2009 11:21:56 AM
    >To: OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    >Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation
    >
    >
    >In reply to Martin Evans:
    >
    > I don't have a solution for a single best way to motivate teachers, but
    > it is very clear that incompetent teaching is rampant in our
    > culture--students come to college who are virtually illiterate. They
    > cannot write, cannot read (except for 4 letter words--I don't just mean
    > swear words), cannot spell and do not even know basic grammar. And they
    > think cheating is normal and acceptable.
    >
    > The bottom line is that teachers are not properly trained, not properly
    > evaluated, and thanks to the NTU they know that it is almost impossible
    > to get fired.
    >
    > To think that "intrinsic motivation" is going to solve this is like
    > thinking the tooth fairy will change your flat tire.
    >
    > At deepest root all this represents the decline of our culture,
    > especially the gradual destruction of all standards in almost every
    > field.
    >
    > As a minimum we need to insist on much higher standards in our schools
    > and some form of merit system. It is no accident that we are pretty much
    > at the bottom compared to all advanced countries in terms of student
    > competence.
    >
    >
    >
    >Edwin A. Locke
    >Dean's Professor of Leadership and Motivation (Emeritus)
    >Robert H. Smith School of Business
    >32122 Canyon Ridge Drive
    >Westlake Village, CA 91361
    >818 706 9361 (in CA) TEL
    >same FAX
    >elocke@rhsmith.umd.edu <mailto:elocke@rhsmith.umd.edu>
    >http://www.rhsmith.umd.edu <http://www.rhsmith.umd.edu/>
    >http://edwinlocke.com <http://edwinlocke.com/>
    >
    >
    >
    > <http://www.incredimail.com/index.asp?id=109094&rui=104440663>
    >
    >

    --
    Darla Flint Paulson
    Ph.D. Candidate
    University of Minnesota
    Department of Human Resources and Industrial Relations
    3-300 Carlson School of Management
    321 19th Avenue South
    Minneapolis, MN 55455


  • 21.  Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    Posted 03-05-2009 13:37
    Darla,
    You make a very good point. However, one doesn't need to go far into the real world to ask these questions. If you remove the extrinsic benefits of the tenure system in academia, a lot of academics will opt out of research or teaching because they have no intrinsic motivation of doing it.
     
    My other impression of the system is that PhD programs train researchers rather than teachers. So new PhDs have to figure out on their own what's teaching is all about and learn on their own mistakes.
     
    Tatiana Kuzmenko, Ph.D.
    McMaster University

    --- On Thu, 3/5/09, Darla Paulson <flint008@UMN.EDU> wrote:
    From: Darla Paulson <flint008@UMN.EDU>
    Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation
    To: OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Date: Thursday, March 5, 2009, 3:35 PM

    I understand we receive plenty of email, so I will keep this brief. In light of what is going on in the world, this is an important discussion. Real estate agents are rewarded based on the value of the homes that they sell. Workers in the finance industry are rewarded based on the dollar values of their sales as well. Executive bonuses/stock options often encourage focus on short-term equity performance. In these systems, what type of people advance into leadership roles? People differ in the extent to which they are intrinsically motivated, will those love helping their customers advance in these systems? Will those who have the long-run best interests of the firm (or who consider the ethical implications of their deeds) advance? What is performance?  How do we, as the teachers of the next generation of business leaders, teach our students about intrinsic and extrinsic motivation?  Thanks for considering my thoughts.  On Mar 4 2009, John D. Kammeyer-Mueller wrote:  > This is just a small sampling of the literature, but I was thinking of the following reviews that show that performance levels and commitment to goals are higher when rewards are used: >  > Locke, E. A., Shaw, K. N., Saari, L. M., Latham, G.P, (1981). Goal setting and task performance: 1969?-?1980. Psychological Bulletin, 90, 125-152. >  > Locke, E. A., Latham, G. P., & Erez, M. (1988).The determinants of goal commitment. Academy of Management Review, 13, 23-39. >  > Contingent pay also increases performance at the organizational level: >  > Gerhart, B., & Milkovich, G. T. (1990). Organizational differences in managerial compensation and financial performance. Academy of Management Journal, 33, 663-691. >  > And contingent pay is more attractive to good performers and those who are more achievement oriented: >  > Harrison D.A., Virick M., & William S. (1996). Working without a net: time, performance, > and turnover under maximally contingent rewards. Journal of Applied Psychology, 81, 33145. >  > Cable D.M., & Judge T.A. 1994. Pay preferences and job search decisions: a personorganization > fit perspective. Personnel Psychology, 47, 31748. >  > So, whether intrinsic motivation is affected or not, *performance* is higher when rewards are established for meeting performance goals. For the classic demonstration showing even intrinsic motivation may not be undermined if rewards are presented in the right context: >  > Eisenberger, R., Rhoades, L., & Cameron, J. (1999). Does pay for performance increase or decrease perceived self?-?determination and intrinsic motivation? Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 77, 1026-1040. >  > The alternative evidence on rewards reducing self-reported motivation found by Deci, Ryan and colleagues is far weaker among college students, and was not found for performance contingent rewards. So, not to put too fine a point on it, the dangers of extrinsic rewards have been amply demonstrated for children finishing puzzles when reward is independent of performance, whereas the benefits of setting rewards for achieving performance targets have been amply demonstrated among working adults. >  > -----Original Message----- > From: Organizational Behavior Division Listserv on behalf of Bateman, Thomas > Sent: Wed 3/4/2009 4:08 PM > To: OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU > Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation >  > May I ask, what sources are discussants in this email stream thinking of when they suggest that the real-world evidence does not support an undermining effect of extrinsic rewards on intrinsic motivation? I also suspect that people often overstate the presumed undermining effect in business applications, but am not sure where the best evidence lies. Thanks... >  > -----Original Message----- > From: Organizational Behavior Division Listserv [mailto:OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of John D. Kammeyer-Mueller > Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 3:39 PM > To: OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU > Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation >  > Although I'm usually loathe to get involved in this sort of discussion, I have to agree with Ed Locke on this issue. Is there any field that has fewer direct consequences for performing well or poorly than education? The system provides guaranteed employment with no measurement of any kind, which means that our education system is often set up around the preferences of teachers independent of the needs of students. Moreover, the evidence for the performance damaging effects of extrinsic rewards in work settings has not been very persuasive, whereas the evidence that concrete measurable goals coupled with appropriate cash incentives can improve performance is abundant. >  > As an example of empirical data specific to this issue, David Figlio and Lawrence Kenn provided an overview of research on incentives and school performance and concluded that student test scores are higher in schools that offer individual financial incentives for teacher performance, especially in schools where parents are unlikely to be involved in student education. In other words, it is the students who are in the most disadvantaged homes who get the most benefit from teacher incentives. >  > Figlio, D.N., & Kenny, L.W. (2007). Individual teacher incentives and student performance. Journal of Public Economics, 91, 901-914. >  >  > -----Original Message----- > From: Organizational Behavior Division Listserv on behalf of Karl Strandberg > Sent: Wed 3/4/2009 2:48 PM > To: OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU > Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation >  > Edwin, I thought that Martin Evans' article was an important contribution, both to one's understanding of intrinsic, as compared to extrinsic, rewards/motivation. >  > I agree with you that many college/university students are ill-prepared. However, I don't blame all of that on poor teaching or inadequate evaluation systems (of teachers), as, it appears, that you do. And, while I agree that the level of exhibited morality, across our nation, has diminished, I think the problem is far deeper than putting the blame on the teachers. I do hope, however, as it seems that you are suggesting, that teachers put a high value on teaching ethics in each of their classes. The Bernard Madoff case is a prime example of the low level of morality that is being practiced, by many, in our society. >  > Sincerely, >  > Karl Strandberg > Lecturer in OB & Leadership > California State University Dominguez Hills >  > -------Original Message------- >  > From: Edwin Locke <mailto:elocke@RHSMITH.UMD.EDU> Date: 3/4/2009 11:21:56 AM > To: OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU > Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation >  >  > In reply to Martin Evans: >  > I don't have a solution for a single best way to motivate teachers, but it is very clear that incompetent teaching is rampant in our culture--students come to college who are virtually illiterate. They cannot write, cannot read (except for 4 letter words--I don't just mean swear words), cannot spell and do not even know basic grammar. And they think cheating is normal and acceptable. >  > The bottom line is that teachers are not properly trained, not properly evaluated, and thanks to the NTU they know that it is almost impossible to get fired. >  > To think that "intrinsic motivation" is going to solve this is like thinking the tooth fairy will change your flat tire. >  > At deepest root all this represents the decline of our culture, especially the gradual destruction of all standards in almost every field. >  > As a minimum we need to insist on much higher standards in our schools and some form of merit system. It is no accident that we are pretty much at the bottom compared to all advanced countries in terms of student competence. >  >  >  > Edwin A. Locke > Dean's Professor of Leadership and Motivation (Emeritus) > Robert H. Smith School of Business > 32122 Canyon Ridge Drive > Westlake Village, CA 91361 > 818 706 9361 (in CA) TEL > same FAX > elocke@rhsmith.umd.edu <mailto:elocke@rhsmith.umd.edu> http://www.rhsmith.umd.edu <http://www.rhsmith.umd.edu/> http://edwinlocke.com <http://edwinlocke.com/>   > 	 > 		 > <http://www.incredimail.com/index.asp?id=109094&rui=104440663>  >   -- Darla Flint Paulson Ph.D. Candidate University of Minnesota Department of Human Resources and Industrial Relations 3-300 Carlson School of Management 321 19th Avenue South Minneapolis, MN  55455 



  • 22.  Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    Posted 03-05-2009 14:59
    Darla, with my students I emphasize that managers should do what they
    can do to make a job intrinsically motivating because intrinsic
    motivation should lead to more satisfaction and lower turnover, etc.
    However, to effectively direct behavior to specific activities, it is
    hard to imagine how one would use intrinsic motivation. For example, if
    I want to increase the intrinsic motivation of an individual, I might
    look at giving them greater autonomy in how they do their work, or
    showing how the work they are doing is making an impact. Presumably,
    this would make the task more rewarding in and of itself. This I would
    expect to increase satisfaction and reduce turnover and the like.

    It is possible that allowing them to work the way they like to would
    result in greater output, but I would be more inclined to trust putting
    a bonus for achieving a target if my goal was to increase production.
    The problem with extrinsic rewards are that people end up doing what
    they are rewarded for and not doing what they are not rewarded for.
    What often happens is that the people who design the reward systems do a
    poor job. Tying executive salaries to stock price seemed like a good
    idea until people realized that laying off hundreds of people would
    create a bump in the stock's value. The problem wasn't using extrinsic
    versus intrinsic rewards, it was using extrinsic rewards poorly.

    I suggest to my students that they assess what they are trying to
    accomplish and then determine if there are intrinsic solutions. If not,
    then move to extrinsic solutions, but make sure you do so with a systems
    mentality so that you think about what things people will do in response
    and what things they won't do in response. Part of the reason that I
    suggest this is because often when you tie extrinsic rewards to
    intrinsically rewarding tasks, it tends to ruin the intrinsic reward. I
    don't like to think of this as an either/or, but as a contingency
    questions of when each is right.

    Jeff



    Darla Paulson wrote:
    > I understand we receive plenty of email, so I will keep this brief. In
    > light of what is going on in the world, this is an important
    > discussion. Real estate agents are rewarded based on the value of the
    > homes that they sell. Workers in the finance industry are rewarded
    > based on the dollar values of their sales as well. Executive
    > bonuses/stock options often encourage focus on short-term equity
    > performance. In these systems, what type of people advance into
    > leadership roles? People differ in the extent to which they are
    > intrinsically motivated, will those love helping their customers
    > advance in these systems? Will those who have the long-run best
    > interests of the firm (or who consider the ethical implications of
    > their deeds) advance? What is performance?
    >
    > How do we, as the teachers of the next generation of business leaders,
    > teach our students about intrinsic and extrinsic motivation?
    >
    > Thanks for considering my thoughts.
    >
    > On Mar 4 2009, John D. Kammeyer-Mueller wrote:
    >
    >> This is just a small sampling of the literature, but I was thinking
    >> of the following reviews that show that performance levels and
    >> commitment to goals are higher when rewards are used:
    >>
    >> Locke, E. A., Shaw, K. N., Saari, L. M., Latham, G.P, (1981). Goal
    >> setting and task performance: 1969?-?1980. Psychological Bulletin,
    >> 90, 125-152.
    >>
    >> Locke, E. A., Latham, G. P., & Erez, M. (1988).The determinants of
    >> goal commitment. Academy of Management Review, 13, 23-39.
    >>
    >> Contingent pay also increases performance at the organizational level:
    >>
    >> Gerhart, B., & Milkovich, G. T. (1990). Organizational differences in
    >> managerial compensation and financial performance. Academy of
    >> Management Journal, 33, 663-691.
    >>
    >> And contingent pay is more attractive to good performers and those
    >> who are more achievement oriented:
    >>
    >> Harrison D.A., Virick M., & William S. (1996). Working without a net:
    >> time, performance,
    >> and turnover under maximally contingent rewards. Journal of Applied
    >> Psychology, 81, 331–45.
    >>
    >> Cable D.M., & Judge T.A. 1994. Pay preferences and job search
    >> decisions: a personorganization
    >> fit perspective. Personnel Psychology, 47, 317–48.
    >>
    >> So, whether intrinsic motivation is affected or not, *performance* is
    >> higher when rewards are established for meeting performance goals.
    >> For the classic demonstration showing even intrinsic motivation may
    >> not be undermined if rewards are presented in the right context:
    >>
    >> Eisenberger, R., Rhoades, L., & Cameron, J. (1999). Does pay for
    >> performance increase or decrease perceived self?-?determination and
    >> intrinsic motivation? Journal of Personality and Social Psychology,
    >> 77, 1026-1040.
    >>
    >> The alternative evidence on rewards reducing self-reported motivation
    >> found by Deci, Ryan and colleagues is far weaker among college
    >> students, and was not found for performance contingent rewards. So,
    >> not to put too fine a point on it, the dangers of extrinsic rewards
    >> have been amply demonstrated for children finishing puzzles when
    >> reward is independent of performance, whereas the benefits of setting
    >> rewards for achieving performance targets have been amply
    >> demonstrated among working adults.
    >>
    >> -----Original Message-----
    >> From: Organizational Behavior Division Listserv on behalf of Bateman,
    >> Thomas
    >> Sent: Wed 3/4/2009 4:08 PM
    >> To: OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    >> Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation
    >>
    >> May I ask, what sources are discussants in this email stream thinking
    >> of when they suggest that the real-world evidence does not support an
    >> undermining effect of extrinsic rewards on intrinsic motivation? I
    >> also suspect that people often overstate the presumed undermining
    >> effect in business applications, but am not sure where the best
    >> evidence lies. Thanks...
    >>
    >> -----Original Message-----
    >> From: Organizational Behavior Division Listserv
    >> [mailto:OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of John D. Kammeyer-Mueller
    >> Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 3:39 PM
    >> To: OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    >> Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation
    >>
    >> Although I'm usually loathe to get involved in this sort of
    >> discussion, I have to agree with Ed Locke on this issue. Is there any
    >> field that has fewer direct consequences for performing well or
    >> poorly than education? The system provides guaranteed employment with
    >> no measurement of any kind, which means that our education system is
    >> often set up around the preferences of teachers independent of the
    >> needs of students. Moreover, the evidence for the performance
    >> damaging effects of extrinsic rewards in work settings has not been
    >> very persuasive, whereas the evidence that concrete measurable goals
    >> coupled with appropriate cash incentives can improve performance is
    >> abundant.
    >>
    >> As an example of empirical data specific to this issue, David Figlio
    >> and Lawrence Kenn provided an overview of research on incentives and
    >> school performance and concluded that student test scores are higher
    >> in schools that offer individual financial incentives for teacher
    >> performance, especially in schools where parents are unlikely to be
    >> involved in student education. In other words, it is the students who
    >> are in the most disadvantaged homes who get the most benefit from
    >> teacher incentives.
    >>
    >> Figlio, D.N., & Kenny, L.W. (2007). Individual teacher incentives and
    >> student performance. Journal of Public Economics, 91, 901-914.
    >>
    >>
    >> -----Original Message-----
    >> From: Organizational Behavior Division Listserv on behalf of Karl
    >> Strandberg
    >> Sent: Wed 3/4/2009 2:48 PM
    >> To: OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    >> Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation
    >>
    >> Edwin, I thought that Martin Evans' article was an important
    >> contribution, both to one's understanding of intrinsic, as compared
    >> to extrinsic, rewards/motivation.
    >>
    >> I agree with you that many college/university students are
    >> ill-prepared. However, I don't blame all of that on poor teaching or
    >> inadequate evaluation systems (of teachers), as, it appears, that you
    >> do. And, while I agree that the level of exhibited morality, across
    >> our nation, has diminished, I think the problem is far deeper than
    >> putting the blame on the teachers. I do hope, however, as it seems
    >> that you are suggesting, that teachers put a high value on teaching
    >> ethics in each of their classes. The Bernard Madoff case is a prime
    >> example of the low level of morality that is being practiced, by
    >> many, in our society.
    >>
    >> Sincerely,
    >>
    >> Karl Strandberg
    >> Lecturer in OB & Leadership
    >> California State University Dominguez Hills
    >>
    >> -------Original Message-------
    >>
    >> From: Edwin Locke <mailto:elocke@RHSMITH.UMD.EDU> Date: 3/4/2009
    >> 11:21:56 AM
    >> To: OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    >> Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation
    >>
    >>
    >> In reply to Martin Evans:
    >>
    >> I don't have a solution for a single best way to motivate teachers,
    >> but it is very clear that incompetent teaching is rampant in our
    >> culture--students come to college who are virtually illiterate. They
    >> cannot write, cannot read (except for 4 letter words--I don't just
    >> mean swear words), cannot spell and do not even know basic grammar.
    >> And they think cheating is normal and acceptable.
    >>
    >> The bottom line is that teachers are not properly trained, not
    >> properly evaluated, and thanks to the NTU they know that it is almost
    >> impossible to get fired.
    >>
    >> To think that "intrinsic motivation" is going to solve this is like
    >> thinking the tooth fairy will change your flat tire.
    >>
    >> At deepest root all this represents the decline of our culture,
    >> especially the gradual destruction of all standards in almost every
    >> field.
    >>
    >> As a minimum we need to insist on much higher standards in our
    >> schools and some form of merit system. It is no accident that we are
    >> pretty much at the bottom compared to all advanced countries in terms
    >> of student competence.
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> Edwin A. Locke
    >> Dean's Professor of Leadership and Motivation (Emeritus)
    >> Robert H. Smith School of Business
    >> 32122 Canyon Ridge Drive
    >> Westlake Village, CA 91361
    >> 818 706 9361 (in CA) TEL
    >> same FAX
    >> elocke@rhsmith.umd.edu <mailto:elocke@rhsmith.umd.edu>
    >> http://www.rhsmith.umd.edu <http://www.rhsmith.umd.edu/>
    >> http://edwinlocke.com <http://edwinlocke.com/>
    >>
    >>
    >> <http://www.incredimail.com/index.asp?id=109094&rui=104440663>
    >>
    >


  • 23.  Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    Posted 03-05-2009 17:10
    I may be showing my age here, but the intrinsic/extrinsic reward debate was alive and vibrant in the late 70's/early 80's when I was getting my PhD. One framework I became acquainted with has served me well ever since. Here's the slide I use to frame a 15-20 minute discussion in my classes:
     
    • Intrinsic motivation stems from needs to feel competent and self-determining.
    • Every extrinsic reward has two components:  feedback and control.
    • Feedback doesn't hurt intrinsic motivation derived from the task (because feedback enhances feelings of competency)
    • Control extinguishes the potential intrinsic motivation that can be derived from the task (because it destroys feelings of self-determination)
     
    Note that all is the perceiver and the context that determines whether the control or feedback aspect of the extrinsic reward is salient.
     
    I've observed people (myself included) who experience quite different attitudes toward work depending on which part of the extrinsic reward is 'in play' at the moment. 
     
    Unfortunately, because my business students' eyes glass over when discussions include lots of references, I've lost the precise source of this framework.  I believe it's from a chapter by Barry Staw in a book he and Jerry Salancik edited called New Directions in Organizational Behavior (St. Clair Press, 1977). Deci's Intrinsic Motivation (Plenum Press, 1975) and Lepper and Breen's The Hidden Costs of Reward (Lawrence Earlbaum, 1978) are both classics and deserving of your attention. 
     
    This discussion prompted me to pull New Directions in OB from a dusty corner of my bookshelf and reminds me of what a great resource and historical document it is.  Every one of its eight chapters is a real gem, written by people we now know as among the most influential scholars in OB but who in 1977 were just beginning to make their marks on the field (all but Karl Weick were assistant or associate professors at the time). The book includes chapters by Jerry Salancik (Commitment and Control), Barry Staw (Motivation), Paul Goodman (Social comparison processes), Bobby Calder (Attribution Theory of Leadership), Jeff Pfeffer (Power and resource allocation), Terry Connelly (Information processing and decision making) and Karl Weick (enactment).
     
    Ken Bettenhausen
    University of Colorado Denver
    phone:  303-556-5816; fax: 303-556-5899
     
     


  • 24.  Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    Posted 03-06-2009 03:18

    As far as crowding out effects are concerned, empirical evidence for crowding out prosocial motivation can be obtained from Gneezy and Rustichini (2000a,b). For intrinsic motivation, one of the few examples are Deckop and Cirka (2000):

    Deckop, J. R., & Cirka, C. C. 2000. The risk and reward of double-edged sword: Effects of a merit pay program on intrinsic motivation. Nonprofit and Voluntary Sector Quarterly, 29(3): 400-418.
    Gneezy, U., & Rustichini, A. 2000. A fine is a price. Journal of Legal Studies, 29: 1-18.
    Gneezy, U., & Rustichini, A. 2000. Pay enough or don't pay at all. Quarterly Journal of Economics, 115(3): 791-810.

    Bård
    Bård Kuvaas, Dr. Oecon/PhD
    Professor of Organizational Psychology
    Department of Leadership and Organization Management
    BI Norwegian School of Management
    Nydalsveien 37, 0442 Oslo, Norway
    Telephone: +47 06600
    Dial direct: + 47 4641 0731
    Telefax: +47 4641 0701
    Home telephone: +47 6301 0478
    E-mail: bard.kuvaas@bi.no
    Home page: http://www.bi.no/Content/AcademicProfile____68856.aspx?ansattid=FGL90032



    "Bettenhausen, Ken" <Kenneth.Bettenhausen@UCDENVER.EDU>
    Sent by: Organizational Behavior Division Listserv <OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU>

    06.03.2009 00:11

    Please respond to
    Organizational Behavior Division Listserv <OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU>

    To
    OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    cc
    Subject
    Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation





    I may be showing my age here, but the intrinsic/extrinsic reward debate was alive and vibrant in the late 70's/early 80's when I was getting my PhD. One framework I became acquainted with has served me well ever since. Here's the slide I use to frame a 15-20 minute discussion in my classes:
     
    • Intrinsic motivation stems from needs to feel competent and self-determining.
    • Every extrinsic reward has two components:  feedback and control.
    • Feedback doesn't hurt intrinsic motivation derived from the task (because feedback enhances feelings of competency)
    • Control extinguishes the potential intrinsic motivation that can be derived from the task (because it destroys feelings of self-determination)
     
    Note that all is the perceiver and the context that determines whether the control or feedback aspect of the extrinsic reward is salient.
     
    I've observed people (myself included) who experience quite different attitudes toward work depending on which part of the extrinsic reward is 'in play' at the moment.  
     
    Unfortunately, because my business students' eyes glass over when discussions include lots of references, I've lost the precise source of this framework.  I believe it's from a chapter by Barry Staw in a book he and Jerry Salancik edited called New Directions in Organizational Behavior (St. Clair Press, 1977). Deci's Intrinsic Motivation (Plenum Press, 1975) and Lepper and Breen's The Hidden Costs of Reward (Lawrence Earlbaum, 1978) are both classics and deserving of your attention.  
     
    This discussion prompted me to pull New Directions in OB from a dusty corner of my bookshelf and reminds me of what a great resource and historical document it is.  Every one of its eight chapters is a real gem, written by people we now know as among the most influential scholars in OB but who in 1977 were just beginning to make their marks on the field (all but Karl Weick were assistant or associate professors at the time). The book includes chapters by Jerry Salancik (Commitment and Control), Barry Staw (Motivation), Paul Goodman (Social comparison processes), Bobby Calder (Attribution Theory of Leadership), Jeff Pfeffer (Power and resource allocation), Terry Connelly (Information processing and decision making) and Karl Weick (enactment).
     
    Ken Bettenhausen
    University of Colorado Denver
    Kenneth.Bettenhausen@ucdenver.edu
    phone:  303-556-5816; fax: 303-556-5899
     
     


  • 25.  Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    Posted 03-07-2009 15:37
    OBers,

    I do not think we need to pick a winner between intrinsic motivation
    and extrinsic motivation/reward; this is not a zero-order game. We all
    know we need both to be most effective. There is no need, either, to
    treat these two as totally separate. It is important to note that Deci
    and Ryan themselves are aware that intrinsic motivation is not the only
    type of self-determined motivation. In fact, they proposed
    "Self-Determination Theory" to explain how nonintrinsically motivated
    behaviors can become truly self-determined and how the social
    environment moderates this process. Within SDT, they also suggested a
    subtheory "Organismic Integration Theory" to detail the different forms
    of extrinsic motivation and how contextual factors affect the
    internationalization and integration of these behaviors.

    Deci, E. L., & Ryan, R. M. (1985). Intrinsic motivation and
    self-determination in human behaviors. New York: Plenum.

    Jinyan Fan

    >>> "John D. Kammeyer-Mueller" <john.kammeyer-muelle@CBA.UFL.EDU>
    3/4/2009 6:58 PM >>>
    This is just a small sampling of the literature, but I was thinking of
    the following reviews that show that performance levels and commitment
    to goals are higher when rewards are used:

    Locke, E. A., Shaw, K. N., Saari, L. M., Latham, G.P, (1981). Goal
    setting and task performance: 1969?-?1980. Psychological Bulletin, 90,
    125-152.

    Locke, E. A., Latham, G. P., & Erez, M. (1988).The determinants of goal
    commitment. Academy of Management Review, 13, 23-39.

    Contingent pay also increases performance at the organizational level:

    Gerhart, B., & Milkovich, G. T. (1990). Organizational differences in
    managerial compensation and financial performance. Academy of Management
    Journal, 33, 663-691.

    And contingent pay is more attractive to good performers and those who
    are more achievement oriented:

    Harrison D.A., Virick M., & William S. (1996). Working without a net:
    time, performance,
    and turnover under maximally contingent rewards. Journal of Applied
    Psychology, 81, 331–45.

    Cable D.M., & Judge T.A. 1994. Pay preferences and job search
    decisions: a personorganization
    fit perspective. Personnel Psychology, 47, 317–48.

    So, whether intrinsic motivation is affected or not, *performance* is
    higher when rewards are established for meeting performance goals. For
    the classic demonstration showing even intrinsic motivation may not be
    undermined if rewards are presented in the right context:

    Eisenberger, R., Rhoades, L., & Cameron, J. (1999). Does pay for
    performance increase or decrease perceived self?-?determination and
    intrinsic motivation? Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 77,
    1026-1040.

    The alternative evidence on rewards reducing self-reported motivation
    found by Deci, Ryan and colleagues is far weaker among college students,
    and was not found for performance contingent rewards. So, not to put too
    fine a point on it, the dangers of extrinsic rewards have been amply
    demonstrated for children finishing puzzles when reward is independent
    of performance, whereas the benefits of setting rewards for achieving
    performance targets have been amply demonstrated among working adults.

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Organizational Behavior Division Listserv on behalf of Bateman,
    Thomas
    Sent: Wed 3/4/2009 4:08 PM
    To: OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    May I ask, what sources are discussants in this email stream thinking
    of when they suggest that the real-world evidence does not support an
    undermining effect of extrinsic rewards on intrinsic motivation? I also
    suspect that people often overstate the presumed undermining effect in
    business applications, but am not sure where the best evidence lies.
    Thanks...

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Organizational Behavior Division Listserv
    [mailto:OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of John D. Kammeyer-Mueller
    Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 3:39 PM
    To: OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    Although I'm usually loathe to get involved in this sort of discussion,
    I have to agree with Ed Locke on this issue. Is there any field that has
    fewer direct consequences for performing well or poorly than education?
    The system provides guaranteed employment with no measurement of any
    kind, which means that our education system is often set up around the
    preferences of teachers independent of the needs of students. Moreover,
    the evidence for the performance damaging effects of extrinsic rewards
    in work settings has not been very persuasive, whereas the evidence that
    concrete measurable goals coupled with appropriate cash incentives can
    improve performance is abundant.

    As an example of empirical data specific to this issue, David Figlio
    and Lawrence Kenn provided an overview of research on incentives and
    school performance and concluded that student test scores are higher in
    schools that offer individual financial incentives for teacher
    performance, especially in schools where parents are unlikely to be
    involved in student education. In other words, it is the students who
    are in the most disadvantaged homes who get the most benefit from
    teacher incentives.

    Figlio, D.N., & Kenny, L.W. (2007). Individual teacher incentives and
    student performance. Journal of Public Economics, 91, 901-914.


    -----Original Message-----
    From: Organizational Behavior Division Listserv on behalf of Karl
    Strandberg
    Sent: Wed 3/4/2009 2:48 PM
    To: OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    Edwin, I thought that Martin Evans' article was an important
    contribution, both to one's understanding of intrinsic, as compared to
    extrinsic, rewards/motivation.

    I agree with you that many college/university students are
    ill-prepared. However, I don't blame all of that on poor teaching or
    inadequate evaluation systems (of teachers), as, it appears, that you
    do. And, while I agree that the level of exhibited morality, across our
    nation, has diminished, I think the problem is far deeper than putting
    the blame on the teachers. I do hope, however, as it seems that you are
    suggesting, that teachers put a high value on teaching ethics in each of
    their classes. The Bernard Madoff case is a prime example of the low
    level of morality that is being practiced, by many, in our society.

    Sincerely,

    Karl Strandberg
    Lecturer in OB & Leadership
    California State University Dominguez Hills

    -------Original Message-------

    From: Edwin Locke <mailto:elocke@RHSMITH.UMD.EDU>
    Date: 3/4/2009 11:21:56 AM
    To: OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation


    In reply to Martin Evans:

    I don't have a solution for a single best way to motivate teachers, but
    it is very clear that incompetent teaching is rampant in our
    culture--students come to college who are virtually illiterate. They
    cannot write, cannot read (except for 4 letter words--I don't just mean
    swear words), cannot spell and do not even know basic grammar. And they
    think cheating is normal and acceptable.

    The bottom line is that teachers are not properly trained, not properly
    evaluated, and thanks to the NTU they know that it is almost impossible
    to get fired.

    To think that "intrinsic motivation" is going to solve this is like
    thinking the tooth fairy will change your flat tire.

    At deepest root all this represents the decline of our culture,
    especially the gradual destruction of all standards in almost every
    field.

    As a minimum we need to insist on much higher standards in our schools
    and some form of merit system. It is no accident that we are pretty much
    at the bottom compared to all advanced countries in terms of student
    competence.



    Edwin A. Locke
    Dean's Professor of Leadership and Motivation (Emeritus)
    Robert H. Smith School of Business
    32122 Canyon Ridge Drive
    Westlake Village, CA 91361
    818 706 9361 (in CA) TEL
    same FAX
    elocke@rhsmith.umd.edu <mailto:elocke@rhsmith.umd.edu>
    http://www.rhsmith.umd.edu <http://www.rhsmith.umd.edu/>
    http://edwinlocke.com <http://edwinlocke.com/>



    <http://www.incredimail.com/index.asp?id=109094&rui=104440663>


  • 26.  Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    Posted 03-07-2009 16:26
    I agree with Jinyan's assessment of intrinsic-extrinsic motivation.  In fact, when I present it to students, I present intrinsic and extrinsic motivation as a duality, extrinsic on the x-axis and intrinsic on the y-axis.  I believe that extrinsic and intrinsic motivation are complementary. Thus, I stress, as Jinyan stated, that managers need to use both to be effective motivators. 
     
    Thanks, Jinyan!
     
    Karl Strandberg
    Lecturer, California State University Dominguez Hills
    -------Original Message-------
     
    Date: 3/7/2009 1:15:15 PM
    Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation
     
    OBers,
     
    I do not think we need to pick a winner between intrinsic motivation
    and extrinsic motivation/reward; this is not a zero-order game. We all
    know we need both to be most effective. There is no need, either, to
    treat these two as totally separate. It is important to note that Deci
    and Ryan themselves are aware that intrinsic motivation is not the only
    type of self-determined motivation. In fact, they proposed
    "Self-Determination Theory" to explain how nonintrinsically motivated
    behaviors can become truly self-determined and how the social
    environment moderates this process. Within SDT, they also suggested a
    subtheory "Organismic Integration Theory" to detail the different forms
    of extrinsic motivation and how contextual factors affect the
    internationalization and integration of these behaviors.
     
    Deci, E. L., & Ryan, R. M. (1985). Intrinsic motivation and
    self-determination in human behaviors. New York: Plenum.
     
    Jinyan Fan
     
    >>> "John D. Kammeyer-Mueller" <john.kammeyer-muelle@CBA.UFL.EDU>
    3/4/2009 6:58 PM >>>
    This is just a small sampling of the literature, but I was thinking of
    the following reviews that show that performance levels and commitment
    to goals are higher when rewards are used:
     
    Locke, E. A., Shaw, K. N., Saari, L. M., Latham, G.P, (1981). Goal
    setting and task performance: 1969?-?1980. Psychological Bulletin, 90,
    125-152.
     
    Locke, E. A., Latham, G. P., & Erez, M. (1988).The determinants of goal
    commitment. Academy of Management Review, 13, 23-39.
     
    Contingent pay also increases performance at the organizational level:
     
    Gerhart, B., & Milkovich, G. T. (1990). Organizational differences in
    managerial compensation and financial performance. Academy of Management
    Journal, 33, 663-691.
     
    And contingent pay is more attractive to good performers and those who
    are more achievement oriented:
     
    Harrison D.A., Virick M., & William S. (1996). Working without a net:
    time, performance,
    and turnover under maximally contingent rewards. Journal of Applied
    Psychology, 81, 331–45.
     
    Cable D.M., & Judge T.A. 1994. Pay preferences and job search
    decisions: a personorganization
    fit perspective. Personnel Psychology, 47, 317–48.
     
    So, whether intrinsic motivation is affected or not, *performance* is
    higher when rewards are established for meeting performance goals. For
    the classic demonstration showing even intrinsic motivation may not be
    undermined if rewards are presented in the right context:
     
    Eisenberger, R., Rhoades, L., & Cameron, J. (1999). Does pay for
    performance increase or decrease perceived self?-?determination and
    intrinsic motivation? Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 77,
    1026-1040.
     
    The alternative evidence on rewards reducing self-reported motivation
    found by Deci, Ryan and colleagues is far weaker among college students,
    and was not found for performance contingent rewards. So, not to put too
    fine a point on it, the dangers of extrinsic rewards have been amply
    demonstrated for children finishing puzzles when reward is independent
    of performance, whereas the benefits of setting rewards for achieving
    performance targets have been amply demonstrated among working adults.
     
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Organizational Behavior Division Listserv on behalf of Bateman,
    Thomas
    Sent: Wed 3/4/2009 4:08 PM
    Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation
     
    May I ask, what sources are discussants in this email stream thinking
    of when they suggest that the real-world evidence does not support an
    undermining effect of extrinsic rewards on intrinsic motivation? I also
    suspect that people often overstate the presumed undermining effect in
    business applications, but am not sure where the best evidence lies.
    Thanks...
     
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Organizational Behavior Division Listserv
    [mailto:OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of John D. Kammeyer-Mueller
    Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 3:39 PM
    Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation
     
    Although I'm usually loathe to get involved in this sort of discussion,
    I have to agree with Ed Locke on this issue. Is there any field that has
    fewer direct consequences for performing well or poorly than education?
    The system provides guaranteed employment with no measurement of any
    kind, which means that our education system is often set up around the
    preferences of teachers independent of the needs of students. Moreover,
    the evidence for the performance damaging effects of extrinsic rewards
    in work settings has not been very persuasive, whereas the evidence that
    concrete measurable goals coupled with appropriate cash incentives can
    improve performance is abundant.
     
    As an example of empirical data specific to this issue, David Figlio
    and Lawrence Kenn provided an overview of research on incentives and
    school performance and concluded that student test scores are higher in
    schools that offer individual financial incentives for teacher
    performance, especially in schools where parents are unlikely to be
    involved in student education. In other words, it is the students who
    are in the most disadvantaged homes who get the most benefit from
    teacher incentives.
     
    Figlio, D.N., & Kenny, L.W. (2007). Individual teacher incentives and
    student performance. Journal of Public Economics, 91, 901-914.
     
     
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Organizational Behavior Division Listserv on behalf of Karl
    Strandberg
    Sent: Wed 3/4/2009 2:48 PM
    Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation
     
    Edwin, I thought that Martin Evans' article was an important
    contribution, both to one's understanding of intrinsic, as compared to
    extrinsic, rewards/motivation.
     
    I agree with you that many college/university students are
    ill-prepared.  However, I don't blame all of that on poor teaching or
    inadequate evaluation systems (of teachers), as, it appears, that you
    do.  And, while I agree that the level of exhibited morality, across our
    nation, has diminished, I think the problem is far deeper than putting
    the blame on the teachers.  I do hope, however, as it seems that you are
    suggesting, that teachers put a high value on teaching ethics in each of
    their classes.  The Bernard Madoff case is a prime example of the low
    level of morality that is being practiced, by many, in our society.
     
    Sincerely,
     
    Karl Strandberg
    Lecturer in OB & Leadership
    California State University Dominguez Hills
     
    -------Original Message-------
     
    From: Edwin Locke <mailto:elocke@RHSMITH.UMD.EDU>
    Date: 3/4/2009 11:21:56 AM
    Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation
     
     
    In reply to Martin Evans:
     
    I don't have a solution for a single best way to motivate teachers, but
    it is very clear that incompetent teaching is rampant in our
    culture--students come to college who are virtually illiterate. They
    cannot write, cannot read (except for 4 letter words--I don't just mean
    swear words), cannot spell and do not even know basic grammar. And they
    think cheating is normal and acceptable.
     
    The bottom line is that teachers are not properly trained, not properly
    evaluated, and thanks to the NTU they know that it is almost impossible
    to get fired.
     
    To think that "intrinsic motivation" is going to solve this is like
    thinking the tooth fairy will change your flat tire.
     
    At deepest root all this represents the decline of our culture,
    especially the gradual destruction of all standards in almost every
    field.
     
    As a minimum we need to insist on much higher standards in our schools
    and some form of merit system. It is no accident that we are pretty much
    at the bottom compared to all advanced countries in terms of student
    competence.
     
     
     
    Edwin A. Locke
    Dean's Professor of Leadership and Motivation (Emeritus)
    Robert H. Smith School of Business
    32122 Canyon Ridge Drive
    Westlake Village, CA 91361
    818 706 9361 (in CA) TEL
    same FAX
     
     
     
     
    ____________________________________________________________
     
    No virus found in this incoming message.
    Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
    Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.9/1988 - Release Date: 03/06/09 19:17:00
     
     


  • 27.  Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    Posted 03-07-2009 17:53

    I have been very dissatisfied with the discussions of intrinsic motivation. There are many reasons.

    1. The concept itself confounds two things: love of the task activity (interest) and achievement motivation (wanting to meet standards of excellence). These two are not the same. (This confounding is due to Deci). Things that tie to achivement motivation (e.g., goals) have been found to strongly affect work performance. Task interest has not (it is much more likely to be related simply to work satisfaction but it is not the only cause, cf., mental challenge, goal success, feedback, variety, etc.

    2. Deci's experiments were based on resumption of an interrupted activity in a lab settting--such a study would hardly make sense in a work setting. It would not even be the right DV (as opposed to overall performance).

    3. The claim that money is controlling is very dubious--inanimate matter does not control your mind. Is there is a single study using actual work performance as the DV showing that feelings of control (divorced from other factors) fully mediated the effect of incentives on performance?

    4. In the real world of work all three types of motivation (not to mention other factors such as leadership, peers, culture, etc) are usually at work. I believe that most people would agree that the ideal situation is when all three work together.
    Take the job of college professor. I am retired (from teaching, not writing). I loved (and still love) the work. I loved the freedom to work on whatever I wanted. I love the sense of achievement I get from completing an article or experiment and from seeing it published. I loved being on a merit system which was not a piece rate as such but which rewarded overall performance. If any of these aspects had been absent, it would have undermined my motivation.

    5. There have been many trenchant criticisms of the concept of intrsic motivation (e.g., see Bandura's 1986 and 1997 books among others) which have not been mentioned. It is not helpful to let ourselves be mesmerized by IM without integrating it with the totality of our knowledge of motivation.



    Edwin A. Locke

    Dean's Professor of Leadership and Motivation (Emeritus)
    Robert H. Smith School of Business
    32122 Canyon Ridge Drive
    Westlake Village, CA 91361
    818 706 9361 (in CA) TEL
    same FAX

    elocke@rhsmith.umd.edu
    http://www.rhsmith.umd.edu
    http://edwinlocke.com
    Jeff Peterson <jgpeters@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>



    To

    <OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU>

    cc


    Subject

    Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    Darla, with my students I emphasize that managers should do what they
    can do to make a job intrinsically motivating because intrinsic
    motivation should lead to more satisfaction and lower turnover, etc.  
    However, to effectively direct behavior to specific activities, it is
    hard to imagine how one would use intrinsic motivation.  For example, if
    I want to increase the intrinsic motivation of an individual, I might
    look at giving them greater autonomy in how they do their work, or
    showing how the work they are doing is making an impact.  Presumably,
    this would make the task more rewarding in and of itself.  This I would
    expect to increase satisfaction and reduce turnover and the like.

    It is possible that allowing them to work the way they like to would
    result in greater output, but I would be more inclined to trust putting
    a bonus for achieving a target if my goal was to increase production.  
    The problem with extrinsic rewards are that people end up doing what
    they are rewarded for and not doing what they are not rewarded for.  
    What often happens is that the people who design the reward systems do a
    poor job.  Tying executive salaries to stock price seemed like a good
    idea until people realized that laying off hundreds of people would
    create a bump in the stock's value.  The problem wasn't using extrinsic
    versus intrinsic rewards, it was using extrinsic rewards poorly.

    I suggest to my students that they assess what they are trying to
    accomplish and then determine if there are intrinsic solutions.  If not,
    then move to extrinsic solutions, but make sure you do so with a systems
    mentality so that you think about what things people will do in response
    and what things they won't do in response.  Part of the reason that I
    suggest this is because often when you tie extrinsic rewards to
    intrinsically rewarding tasks, it tends to ruin the intrinsic reward.  I
    don't like to think of this as an either/or, but as a contingency
    questions of when each is right.

    Jeff



    Darla Paulson wrote:
    > I understand we receive plenty of email, so I will keep this brief. In
    > light of what is going on in the world, this is an important
    > discussion. Real estate agents are rewarded based on the value of the
    > homes that they sell. Workers in the finance industry are rewarded
    > based on the dollar values of their sales as well. Executive
    > bonuses/stock options often encourage focus on short-term equity
    > performance. In these systems, what type of people advance into
    > leadership roles? People differ in the extent to which they are
    > intrinsically motivated, will those love helping their customers
    > advance in these systems? Will those who have the long-run best
    > interests of the firm (or who consider the ethical implications of
    > their deeds) advance? What is performance?
    >
    > How do we, as the teachers of the next generation of business leaders,
    > teach our students about intrinsic and extrinsic motivation?
    >
    > Thanks for considering my thoughts.
    >
    > On Mar 4 2009, John D. Kammeyer-Mueller wrote:
    >
    >> This is just a small sampling of the literature, but I was thinking
    >> of the following reviews that show that performance levels and
    >> commitment to goals are higher when rewards are used:
    >>
    >> Locke, E. A., Shaw, K. N., Saari, L. M., Latham, G.P, (1981). Goal
    >> setting and task performance: 1969?-?1980. Psychological Bulletin,
    >> 90, 125-152.
    >>
    >> Locke, E. A., Latham, G. P., & Erez, M. (1988).The determinants of
    >> goal commitment. Academy of Management Review, 13, 23-39.
    >>
    >> Contingent pay also increases performance at the organizational level:
    >>
    >> Gerhart, B., & Milkovich, G. T. (1990). Organizational differences in
    >> managerial compensation and financial performance. Academy of
    >> Management Journal, 33, 663-691.
    >>
    >> And contingent pay is more attractive to good performers and those
    >> who are more achievement oriented:
    >>
    >> Harrison D.A., Virick M., & William S. (1996). Working without a net:
    >> time, performance,
    >> and turnover under maximally contingent rewards. Journal of Applied
    >> Psychology, 81, 331–45.
    >>
    >> Cable D.M., & Judge T.A. 1994. Pay preferences and job search
    >> decisions: a personorganization
    >> fit perspective. Personnel Psychology, 47, 317–48.
    >>
    >> So, whether intrinsic motivation is affected or not, *performance* is
    >> higher when rewards are established for meeting performance goals.
    >> For the classic demonstration showing even intrinsic motivation may
    >> not be undermined if rewards are presented in the right context:
    >>
    >> Eisenberger, R., Rhoades, L., & Cameron, J. (1999). Does pay for
    >> performance increase or decrease perceived self?-?determination and
    >> intrinsic motivation? Journal of Personality and Social Psychology,
    >> 77, 1026-1040.
    >>
    >> The alternative evidence on rewards reducing self-reported motivation
    >> found by Deci, Ryan and colleagues is far weaker among college
    >> students, and was not found for performance contingent rewards. So,
    >> not to put too fine a point on it, the dangers of extrinsic rewards
    >> have been amply demonstrated for children finishing puzzles when
    >> reward is independent of performance, whereas the benefits of setting
    >> rewards for achieving performance targets have been amply
    >> demonstrated among working adults.
    >>
    >> -----Original Message-----
    >> From: Organizational Behavior Division Listserv on behalf of Bateman,
    >> Thomas
    >> Sent: Wed 3/4/2009 4:08 PM
    >> To: OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    >> Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation
    >>
    >> May I ask, what sources are discussants in this email stream thinking
    >> of when they suggest that the real-world evidence does not support an
    >> undermining effect of extrinsic rewards on intrinsic motivation? I
    >> also suspect that people often overstate the presumed undermining
    >> effect in business applications, but am not sure where the best
    >> evidence lies. Thanks...
    >>
    >> -----Original Message-----
    >> From: Organizational Behavior Division Listserv
    >> [mailto:OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of John D. Kammeyer-Mueller
    >> Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 3:39 PM
    >> To: OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    >> Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation
    >>
    >> Although I'm usually loathe to get involved in this sort of
    >> discussion, I have to agree with Ed Locke on this issue. Is there any
    >> field that has fewer direct consequences for performing well or
    >> poorly than education? The system provides guaranteed employment with
    >> no measurement of any kind, which means that our education system is
    >> often set up around the preferences of teachers independent of the
    >> needs of students. Moreover, the evidence for the performance
    >> damaging effects of extrinsic rewards in work settings has not been
    >> very persuasive, whereas the evidence that concrete measurable goals
    >> coupled with appropriate cash incentives can improve performance is
    >> abundant.
    >>
    >> As an example of empirical data specific to this issue, David Figlio
    >> and Lawrence Kenn provided an overview of research on incentives and
    >> school performance and concluded that student test scores are higher
    >> in schools that offer individual financial incentives for teacher
    >> performance, especially in schools where parents are unlikely to be
    >> involved in student education. In other words, it is the students who
    >> are in the most disadvantaged homes who get the most benefit from
    >> teacher incentives.
    >>
    >> Figlio, D.N., & Kenny, L.W. (2007). Individual teacher incentives and
    >> student performance. Journal of Public Economics, 91, 901-914.
    >>
    >>
    >> -----Original Message-----
    >> From: Organizational Behavior Division Listserv on behalf of Karl
    >> Strandberg
    >> Sent: Wed 3/4/2009 2:48 PM
    >> To: OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    >> Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation
    >>
    >> Edwin, I thought that Martin Evans' article was an important
    >> contribution, both to one's understanding of intrinsic, as compared
    >> to extrinsic, rewards/motivation.
    >>
    >> I agree with you that many college/university students are
    >> ill-prepared. However, I don't blame all of that on poor teaching or
    >> inadequate evaluation systems (of teachers), as, it appears, that you
    >> do. And, while I agree that the level of exhibited morality, across
    >> our nation, has diminished, I think the problem is far deeper than
    >> putting the blame on the teachers. I do hope, however, as it seems
    >> that you are suggesting, that teachers put a high value on teaching
    >> ethics in each of their classes. The Bernard Madoff case is a prime
    >> example of the low level of morality that is being practiced, by
    >> many, in our society.
    >>
    >> Sincerely,
    >>
    >> Karl Strandberg
    >> Lecturer in OB & Leadership
    >> California State University Dominguez Hills
    >>
    >> -------Original Message-------
    >>
    >> From: Edwin Locke <
    mailto:elocke@RHSMITH.UMD.EDU> Date: 3/4/2009
    >> 11:21:56 AM
    >> To: OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    >> Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation
    >>
    >>
    >> In reply to Martin Evans:
    >>
    >> I don't have a solution for a single best way to motivate teachers,
    >> but it is very clear that incompetent teaching is rampant in our
    >> culture--students come to college who are virtually illiterate. They
    >> cannot write, cannot read (except for 4 letter words--I don't just
    >> mean swear words), cannot spell and do not even know basic grammar.
    >> And they think cheating is normal and acceptable.
    >>
    >> The bottom line is that teachers are not properly trained, not
    >> properly evaluated, and thanks to the NTU they know that it is almost
    >> impossible to get fired.
    >>
    >> To think that "intrinsic motivation" is going to solve this is like
    >> thinking the tooth fairy will change your flat tire.
    >>
    >> At deepest root all this represents the decline of our culture,
    >> especially the gradual destruction of all standards in almost every
    >> field.
    >>
    >> As a minimum we need to insist on much higher standards in our
    >> schools and some form of merit system. It is no accident that we are
    >> pretty much at the bottom compared to all advanced countries in terms
    >> of student competence.
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> Edwin A. Locke
    >> Dean's Professor of Leadership and Motivation (Emeritus)
    >> Robert H. Smith School of Business
    >> 32122 Canyon Ridge Drive
    >> Westlake Village, CA 91361
    >> 818 706 9361 (in CA) TEL
    >> same FAX
    >> elocke@rhsmith.umd.edu <
    mailto:elocke@rhsmith.umd.edu>
    >>
    http://www.rhsmith.umd.edu <http://www.rhsmith.umd.edu/>
    >>
    http://edwinlocke.com <http://edwinlocke.com/>
    >>    
    >>        
    >> <
    http://www.incredimail.com/index.asp?id=109094&rui=104440663>
    >>
    >



  • 28.  Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    Posted 03-07-2009 22:07

    I agree with much of what Ed Locke says here.  There are some factors which make most of the research we do in OB somewhat suspect.  One of the major problems is that simulations, surveys, etc. cannot accurately replicate a true business context.  This is one of the disadvantages we have as opposed the medical sciences or engineering. So, most of that research is performed as if the phenomena under study were happening in a vacuum.  Those who have any business experience know that the context is a crucial factor in behavior.

     

    I believe that the most important behavioral dimensions are motivation (intrinsic, extrinsic and what I call collective motivation) and leadership.  But when I speak to undergraduate, graduates or executives, I try to emphasize too the following: 

     

    Organizations are people! Performance and organizational success depend on the competiveness provided by the members of the organization;

     

    As such, managers must keep in mind that they do not just manage workers, but human beings;

     

    This in turn demands managers' attention not only to the purpose of work, but also to the worker's purpose (I think this expression was first used by Ronnie Lessem).

     

    Thanks,

     

    Ivan

     

     

    Dr. R. Ivan Blanco                                                
    Department of Management
    McCoy College of Business Administration 
    Texas State Univeristy - San Marcos
    San Marcos, TX 78666
    Voice (512) 245-1842  -  Fax (512) 245-2850 
    E-mail  rb39@txstate.edu
     
    "Las naciones marchan hacia el término de su grandeza, con el mismo paso que camina su educación."
    "Nations march toward their greatness at the same pace as their educational systems evolve." -- Simon Bolivar


    From: Organizational Behavior Division Listserv [OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Edwin Locke [elocke@RHSMITH.UMD.EDU]
    Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 4:52 PM
    To: OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    I have been very dissatisfied with the discussions of intrinsic motivation. There are many reasons.

    1. The concept itself confounds two things: love of the task activity (interest) and achievement motivation (wanting to meet standards of excellence). These two are not the same. (This confounding is due to Deci). Things that tie to achivement motivation (e.g., goals) have been found to strongly affect work performance. Task interest has not (it is much more likely to be related simply to work satisfaction but it is not the only cause, cf., mental challenge, goal success, feedback, variety, etc.

    2. Deci's experiments were based on resumption of an interrupted activity in a lab settting--such a study would hardly make sense in a work setting. It would not even be the right DV (as opposed to overall performance).

    3. The claim that money is controlling is very dubious--inanimate matter does not control your mind. Is there is a single study using actual work performance as the DV showing that feelings of control (divorced from other factors) fully mediated the effect of incentives on performance?

    4. In the real world of work all three types of motivation (not to mention other factors such as leadership, peers, culture, etc) are usually at work. I believe that most people would agree that the ideal situation is when all three work together.
    Take the job of college professor. I am retired (from teaching, not writing). I loved (and still love) the work. I loved the freedom to work on whatever I wanted. I love the sense of achievement I get from completing an article or experiment and from seeing it published. I loved being on a merit system which was not a piece rate as such but which rewarded overall performance. If any of these aspects had been absent, it would have undermined my motivation.

    5. There have been many trenchant criticisms of the concept of intrsic motivation (e.g., see Bandura's 1986 and 1997 books among others) which have not been mentioned. It is not helpful to let ourselves be mesmerized by IM without integrating it with the totality of our knowledge of motivation.



    Edwin A. Locke

    Dean's Professor of Leadership and Motivation (Emeritus)
    Robert H. Smith School of Business
    32122 Canyon Ridge Drive
    Westlake Village, CA 91361
    818 706 9361 (in CA) TEL
    same FAX

    elocke@rhsmith.umd.edu
    http://www.rhsmith.umd.edu
    http://edwinlocke.com
    Jeff Peterson <jgpeters@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>



    To

    <OB@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU>

    cc


    Subject

    Re: Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

    Darla, with my students I emphasize that managers should do what they
    can do to make a job intrinsically motivating because intrinsic
    motivation should lead to more satisfaction and lower turnover, etc.  
    However, to effectively direct behavior to specific activities, it is
    hard to imagine how one would use intrinsic motivation.  For example, if
    I want to increase the intrinsic motivation of an individual, I might
    look at giving them greater autonomy in how they do their work, or
    showing how the work they are doing is making an impact.  Presumably,
    this would make the task more rewarding in and of itself.  This I would
    expect to increase satisfaction and reduce turnover and the like.

    It is possible that allowing them to work the way they like to would
    result in greater output, but I would be more inclined to trust putting
    a bonus for achieving a target if my goal was to increase production.  
    The problem with extrinsic rewards are that people end up doing what
    they are rewarded for and not doing what they are not rewarded for.  
    What often happens is that the people who design the reward systems do a
    poor job.  Tying executive salaries to stock price seemed like a good
    idea until people realized that laying off hundreds of people would
    create a bump in the stock's value.  The problem wasn't using extrinsic
    versus intrinsic rewards, it was using extrinsic rewards poorly.

    I suggest to my students that they assess what they are trying to
    accomplish and then determine if there are intrinsic solutions.  If not,
    then move to extrinsic solutions, but make sure you do so with a systems
    mentality so that you think about what things people will do in response
    and what things they won't do in response.  Part of the reason that I
    suggest this is because often when you tie extrinsic rewards to
    intrinsically rewarding tasks, it tends to ruin the intrinsic reward.  I
    don't like to think of this as an either/or, but as a contingency
    questions of when each is right.

    Jeff



    Darla Paulson wrote:
    > I understand we receive plenty of email, so I will keep this brief. In
    > light of what is going on in the world, this is an important
    > discussion. Real estate agents are rewarded based on the value of the
    > homes that they sell. Workers in the finance industry are rewarded
    > based on the dollar values of their sales as well. Executive
    > bonuses/stock options often encourage focus on short-term equity
    > performance. In these systems, what type of people advance into
    > leadership roles? People differ in the extent to which they are
    > intrinsically motivated, will those love helping their customers
    > advance in these systems? Will those who have the long-run best
    > interests of the firm (or who consider the ethical implications of
    > their deeds) advance? What is performance?
    >
    > How do we, as the teachers of the next generation of business leaders,
    > teach our students about intrinsic and extrinsic motivation?
    >
    > Thanks for considering my thoughts.
    >
    > On Mar 4 2009, John D. Kammeyer-Mueller wrote: