Discussion: View Thread

  • 1.  European PhDs

    Posted 04-14-2008 16:34
    Vu Tran submitted on behalf of Bruce Hoag at brucehoag1@gmail.com
     
    Dear Colleagues,
     
    I have problem, and everyone I have contacted thus far does not know how to solve it. The problem is far from unique, so I am appealing to you for advice on what to do.
     
    I graduated with my PhD from the Manchester Business School in the United Kingdom last year. The London Financial Times recently rated this doctoral program as No. 1 in the world.
     
    The problem concerns the path to obtaining a European PhD. European PhDs, as a rule, are not course-based. That is, students are not required to take courses and pass comprehensive exams before engaging in the research that will lead to their dissertations. Instead, the research begins on the first day and continues until the dissertation is handed in. Then there is an oral defense in the presence of an internal examiner (from the university where the student is enrolled) and an external examiner (someone in a similar research area who is from another university). The external examiner has the final say in whether or not the degree is awarded. This makes the process an apprenticeship more than anything else.
     
    The "problem" with this process is that US universities don't seem to know what courses a person with a European PhD is qualified to teach. As a result, they revert back to courses that were taken at the Masters level which means that they are not recognizing the PhD. This, it seems to me, is supremely unjust. We all know that you can take every course in the catalogue and still be ABD. It's the dissertation that matters, not all the hoops you had to jump through to get it accepted.
     
    What experiences have you had with this "problem," and how can we as a community solve it?
     
    Bruce


  • 2.  European PhDs

    Posted 04-14-2008 17:02
    Hi Bruce,

    In my own experience there are only three options:

    1) you apply to R2 institutions, i.e., teaching oriented programs who are more likely to accept you,
    2) you get lucky and find an institution that is flexible enough to look beyond the traditional degree specifications, or
    3) you stay out of the US market ...

    European programs aren't any better in terms of restricting your access to their programs if you have a "non-traditional European" degree ... I have a degree from New Zealand - both, US and European institutions were VERY hesitant to accept that ... I eventually got lucky and found a very nice program that was only interested in me as a person, my current abilities, and my interests/strengths ...

    Good luck!!!

    Bernd Kupka, Ph.D.



    Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 13:33:37 -0700
    From: VTran@NDS.COM
    Subject: European PhDs
    To: OB@AOMLISTS.pace.edu

    Vu Tran submitted on behalf of Bruce Hoag at brucehoag1@gmail.com
     
    Dear Colleagues,
     
    I have problem, and everyone I have contacted thus far does not know how to solve it. The problem is far from unique, so I am appealing to you for advice on what to do.
     
    I graduated with my PhD from the Manchester Business School in the United Kingdom last year. The London Financial Times recently rated this doctoral program as No. 1 in the world.
     
    The problem concerns the path to obtaining a European PhD. European PhDs, as a rule, are not course-based. That is, students are not required to take courses and pass comprehensive exams before engaging in the research that will lead to their dissertations. Instead, the research begins on the first day and continues until the dissertation is handed in. Then there is an oral defense in the presence of an internal examiner (from the university where the student is enrolled) and an external examiner (someone in a similar research area who is from another university). The external examiner has the final say in whether or not the degree is awarded. This makes the process an apprenticeship more than anything else.
     
    The "problem" with this process is that US universities don't seem to know what courses a person with a European PhD is qualified to teach. As a result, they revert back to courses that were taken at the Masters level which means that they are not recognizing the PhD. This, it seems to me, is supremely unjust. We all know that you can take every course in the catalogue and still be ABD. It's the dissertation that matters, not all the hoops you had to jump through to get it accepted.
     
    What experiences have you had with this "problem," and how can we as a community solve it?
     
    Bruce

    Connect to the next generation of MSN Messenger  Get it now!


  • 3.  European PhDs

    Posted 04-14-2008 17:17
    Dear Bruce:

    I think that you are generalizing quite a bit and the
    problem is not as big as you suggest it is (in fact, I don't
    really see this problem at all I have have lived for
    substantial periods of times on both sides of the big lake).
    Whether or not a program in Europe has coursework and
    whether or not a Ph.D. from Europe will be accepted by a
    U.S. school depends on many idiosyncratic factors.

    I would find it odd to hear of specific instances of
    individuals who applied to U.S. schools and were turned down
    because the U.S. schools said that they did not recognize
    the degrees. Rather, other elements will probably come into
    play. Whether a person is qualified to teach depends on many
    factors (e.g., substantive domain-level knowledge, thesis
    committee members, recommendation letters, publications in
    international journals, etc.). If a person does a
    no-coursework Ph.D. but rights a thesis that produces three
    published papers in top-level international journals (and
    assuming holding other factors constant) I would find rather
    odd that they would not be hired by a school in the U.S.

    As for "rule" European programs may or may not have
    coursework. It depends on the university. Our economics,
    management, and finance programs at the business school
    where I am employed have substantial taught components and
    there are many programs I know of across Europe that do too.
    I recognize that there are many programs in England that do
    not have formal programs; however, there are also many top
    programs that do have formal course requirements, e.g., see
    http://www.london.edu/programmes1189.html ; there are many
    other examples)

    Finally, whether or not a Ph.D. done at a European school is
    accepted in a U.S. school can depend on many factors. The
    are many professors at U.S. schools with doctorates from
    Europe. At the country level, the NARICs are the ones that
    should provide information to schools about equivalence
    issues, e.g., in the U.S. see
    http://www.enic-naric.net/index.aspx?c=USA)

    HTH,
    John Antonakis

    ----- Original Message -----
    Expéditeur: "Tran, Vu" <VTran@nds.com>
    à: OB@aomlists.pace.edu
    Sujet: European PhDs
    Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 13:33:37 -0700

    > Vu Tran submitted on behalf of Bruce Hoag at
    > brucehoag1@gmail.com
    >
    > Dear Colleagues,
    >
    > I have problem, and everyone I have contacted thus far
    > does not know how to solve it. The problem is far from
    > unique, so I am appealing to you for advice on what to do.
    >
    > I graduated with my PhD from the Manchester Business
    > School in the United Kingdom last year. The London
    > Financial Times recently rated this doctoral program as
    > No. 1 in the world.
    >
    > The problem concerns the path to obtaining a European PhD.
    > European PhDs, as a rule, are not course-based. That is,
    > students are not required to take courses and pass
    > comprehensive exams before engaging in the research that
    > will lead to their dissertations. Instead, the research
    > begins on the first day and continues until the
    > dissertation is handed in. Then there is an oral defense
    > in the presence of an internal examiner (from the
    > university where the student is enrolled) and an external
    > examiner (someone in a similar research area who is from
    > another university). The external examiner has the final
    > say in whether or not the degree is awarded. This makes
    > the process an apprenticeship more than anything else.
    >
    > The "problem" with this process is that US universities
    > don't seem to know what courses a person with a European
    > PhD is qualified to teach. As a result, they revert back
    > to courses that were taken at the Masters level which
    > means that they are not recognizing the PhD. This, it
    > seems to me, is supremely unjust. We all know that you can
    > take every course in the catalogue and still be ABD. It's
    > the dissertation that matters, not all the hoops you had
    > to jump through to get it accepted.
    >
    > What experiences have you had with this "problem," and how
    > can we as a community solve it?
    >
    > Bruce
    >
    >

    ______________________________________

    Prof. John Antonakis
    Associate Dean, Research
    Faculty of Business and Economics
    University of Lausanne
    Internef #527
    CH-1015 Lausanne-Dorigny
    Switzerland

    Tel: ++41 (0)21 692-3438
    Fax: ++41 (0)21 692-3305

    http://www.hec.unil.ch/people/jantonakis&cl=en


  • 4.  European PhDs

    Posted 04-14-2008 19:30
    I think there are a couple of things

    1. Make very clear in your resume what your teaching interests are.

    2. In your letter of application make very clear why you are qualified to teach the things you say you are interested in teaching. Evidence of you qualification might include self-study in the various domains you worked on in your dissertation; it might include workshops or tutoring you took in various areas; it might include deep consultations you had with your advisors on these topics; it might include important review chapters in your dissertation; it might include other articles you had written.

    hth
    m

    At 03:33 PM 4/14/2008, you wrote:
    Vu Tran submitted on behalf of Bruce Hoag at brucehoag1@gmail.com
     
    Dear Colleagues,
     
    I have problem, and everyone I have contacted thus far does not know how to solve it. The problem is far from unique, so I am appealing to you for advice on what to do.
     
    I graduated with my PhD from the Manchester Business School in the United Kingdom last year. The London Financial Times recently rated this doctoral program as No. 1 in the world.
     
    The problem concerns the path to obtaining a European PhD. European PhDs, as a rule, are not course-based. That is, students are not required to take courses and pass comprehensive exams before engaging in the research that will lead to their dissertations. Instead, the research begins on the first day and continues until the dissertation is handed in. Then there is an oral defense in the presence of an internal examiner (from the university where the student is enrolled) and an external examiner (someone in a similar research area who is from another university). The external examiner has the final say in whether or not the degree is awarded. This makes the process an apprenticeship more than anything else.
     
    The "problem" with this process is that US universities don't seem to know what courses a person with a European PhD is qualified to teach. As a result, they revert back to courses that were taken at the Masters level which means that they are not recognizing the PhD. This, it seems to me, is supremely unjust. We all know that you can take every course in the catalogue and still be ABD. It's the dissertation that matters, not all the hoops you had to jump through to get it accepted.
     
    What experiences have you had with this "problem," and how can we as a community solve it?
     
    Bruce
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  • 5.  European PhDs

    Posted 04-15-2008 01:51
    Dear Bruce and Bernd,
     
    I think everyone is right in his / her own right. I agree with Bruce that in general a European PhD is not recognized well in the US and Canada. Similarly, Bernd is right in saying that a PhD from NZ would in general not get much of a preference in Europe and the US.  
     
    Actually the whole issue is very complicated and too sensitive for a discussion on such a forum. In my personal experience, from Pakistan it can be  as difficult and frustrating to make it to the first cut list in North American, European, NZ & Australian universities even with a typical North American PhD and an average research record including a publication in AMJ.
     
    All the best.
     
    Usman 
     
     
     
     

     
    On 4/15/08, Bernd Kupka <coachkupka@hotmail.com> wrote:
    Hi Bruce,

    In my own experience there are only three options:

    1) you apply to R2 institutions, i.e., teaching oriented programs who are more likely to accept you,
    2) you get lucky and find an institution that is flexible enough to look beyond the traditional degree specifications, or
    3) you stay out of the US market ...

    European programs aren't any better in terms of restricting your access to their programs if you have a "non-traditional European" degree ... I have a degree from New Zealand - both, US and European institutions were VERY hesitant to accept that ... I eventually got lucky and found a very nice program that was only interested in me as a person, my current abilities, and my interests/strengths ...

    Good luck!!!

    Bernd Kupka, Ph.D.



    Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 13:33:37 -0700
    From: VTran@NDS.COM
    Subject: European PhDs
    To: OB@AOMLISTS.pace.edu


    Vu Tran submitted on behalf of Bruce Hoag at brucehoag1@gmail.com
     
    Dear Colleagues,
     
    I have problem, and everyone I have contacted thus far does not know how to solve it. The problem is far from unique, so I am appealing to you for advice on what to do.
     
    I graduated with my PhD from the Manchester Business School in the United Kingdom last year. The London Financial Times recently rated this doctoral program as No. 1 in the world.
     
    The problem concerns the path to obtaining a European PhD. European PhDs, as a rule, are not course-based. That is, students are not required to take courses and pass comprehensive exams before engaging in the research that will lead to their dissertations. Instead, the research begins on the first day and continues until the dissertation is handed in. Then there is an oral defense in the presence of an internal examiner (from the university where the student is enrolled) and an external examiner (someone in a similar research area who is from another university). The external examiner has the final say in whether or not the degree is awarded. This makes the process an apprenticeship more than anything else.
     
    The "problem" with this process is that US universities don't seem to know what courses a person with a European PhD is qualified to teach. As a result, they revert back to courses that were taken at the Masters level which means that they are not recognizing the PhD. This, it seems to me, is supremely unjust. We all know that you can take every course in the catalogue and still be ABD. It's the dissertation that matters, not all the hoops you had to jump through to get it accepted.
     
    What experiences have you had with this "problem," and how can we as a community solve it?
     
    Bruce

    Connect to the next generation of MSN Messenger  Get it now!



  • 6.  European PhDs

    Posted 04-15-2008 13:33
    Amazing! MBS has the best ranked PhD programme in the world (according to FT). I think this is a very important issue and needs to be voiced more. I am also concerned if the biased view affects publications in the top journals (mostly US) from European researchers?
     
    Shandana
     
    On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 6:50 AM, Usman Raja <usmanraja@gmail.com> wrote:
    Dear Bruce and Bernd,
     
    I think everyone is right in his / her own right. I agree with Bruce that in general a European PhD is not recognized well in the US and Canada. Similarly, Bernd is right in saying that a PhD from NZ would in general not get much of a preference in Europe and the US.  
     
    Actually the whole issue is very complicated and too sensitive for a discussion on such a forum. In my personal experience, from Pakistan it can be  as difficult and frustrating to make it to the first cut list in North American, European, NZ & Australian universities even with a typical North American PhD and an average research record including a publication in AMJ.
     
    All the best.
     
    Usman 
     
     
     
     

     
    On 4/15/08, Bernd Kupka <coachkupka@hotmail.com> wrote:
    Hi Bruce,

    In my own experience there are only three options:

    1) you apply to R2 institutions, i.e., teaching oriented programs who are more likely to accept you,
    2) you get lucky and find an institution that is flexible enough to look beyond the traditional degree specifications, or
    3) you stay out of the US market ...

    European programs aren't any better in terms of restricting your access to their programs if you have a "non-traditional European" degree ... I have a degree from New Zealand - both, US and European institutions were VERY hesitant to accept that ... I eventually got lucky and found a very nice program that was only interested in me as a person, my current abilities, and my interests/strengths ...

    Good luck!!!

    Bernd Kupka, Ph.D.



    Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 13:33:37 -0700
    From: VTran@NDS.COM
    Subject: European PhDs
    To: OB@AOMLISTS.pace.edu


    Vu Tran submitted on behalf of Bruce Hoag at brucehoag1@gmail.com
     
    Dear Colleagues,
     
    I have problem, and everyone I have contacted thus far does not know how to solve it. The problem is far from unique, so I am appealing to you for advice on what to do.
     
    I graduated with my PhD from the Manchester Business School in the United Kingdom last year. The London Financial Times recently rated this doctoral program as No. 1 in the world.
     
    The problem concerns the path to obtaining a European PhD. European PhDs, as a rule, are not course-based. That is, students are not required to take courses and pass comprehensive exams before engaging in the research that will lead to their dissertations. Instead, the research begins on the first day and continues until the dissertation is handed in. Then there is an oral defense in the presence of an internal examiner (from the university where the student is enrolled) and an external examiner (someone in a similar research area who is from another university). The external examiner has the final say in whether or not the degree is awarded. This makes the process an apprenticeship more than anything else.
     
    The "problem" with this process is that US universities don't seem to know what courses a person with a European PhD is qualified to teach. As a result, they revert back to courses that were taken at the Masters level which means that they are not recognizing the PhD. This, it seems to me, is supremely unjust. We all know that you can take every course in the catalogue and still be ABD. It's the dissertation that matters, not all the hoops you had to jump through to get it accepted.
     
    What experiences have you had with this "problem," and how can we as a community solve it?
     
    Bruce

    Connect to the next generation of MSN Messenger  Get it now!




  • 7.  European PhDs

    Posted 04-20-2008 09:59
    Hi:

    We have to be careful here about these rankings because they might not give the correct impression about the research strength of program or how the program provides strong training to students. I searched on the FT page and could not find information on ranking of doctoral programs. Perhaps this ranking has been discontinued--from what I know about FT, there are other components in the ranking score that can affect ranking (i.e., components that do not tap into research).

    The most important criterion for legitimizing the doctoral degree is probably faculty research output in top journals (in addition to rigor in the doctoral program).  A very objective ranking of business schools is the UTD ranking, which counts papers published (divided by number of authors) in top-ranked business journals.

    For instance, select a series of journals in a particular domain for a certain period (e.g., 2005-2007) and then you can see how well schools are doing. Be sure to click the "world-wide" option.

    http://somweb.utdallas.edu/top100Ranking/searchRanking.php?t=j

    If selecting all journals, by this criterion, which I think is the best single criterion reflecting faculty quality, some of the top-ranked schools in Europe are:

    Insead
    London Business School
    Tilburg
    Erasmus University
    Maastricht
    Mannheim

    Interestingly, guess what these schools have in common (based on my quick search--e.g., see http://www.insead.edu/phd/program/index.cfm  or http://www.london.edu/programmes1189.html ?  They all have strong taught components in their Ph.D. programs focusing on methods and substantive issues.
    This is the kind of stuff that U.S. schools do so I am sure that they would have no problem accepting an individual who has had solid training (as per standard U.S. criteria).  The counterfactual would also have to be explored (i.e., do the bottom ranked schools have strong taught components--I don't know nor do I have the time to look)

    The point that I am trying to get across here is that many top European schools have strong taught components in their programs.

    Finally, about the bias and how it might affect publication in a top journal; to my knowledge, there is no study showing that there is a bias (i.e., that top international/U.S. journals are more likely to take quality manuscripts from U.S. institutions as opposed to the same quality manuscripts from non-U.S. institutions).

    Best,
    John Antonakis.

    At 18:33 15.04.2008 +0100, you wrote:
    Amazing! MBS has the best ranked PhD programme in the world (according to FT). I think this is a very important issue and needs to be voiced more. I am also concerned if the biased view affects publications in the top journals (mostly US) from European researchers?
     
    Shandana
     
    On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 6:50 AM, Usman Raja <usmanraja@gmail.com> wrote:
    Dear Bruce and Bernd,
     
    I think everyone is right in his / her own right. I agree with Bruce that in general a European PhD is not recognized well in the US and Canada. Similarly, Bernd is right in saying that a PhD from NZ would in general not get much of a preference in Europe and the US. 
     
    Actually the whole issue is very complicated and too sensitive for a discussion on such a forum. In my personal experience, from Pakistan it can be  as difficult and frustrating to make it to the first cut list in North American, European, NZ & Australian universities even with a typical North American PhD and an average research record including a publication in AMJ.
     
    All the best.
     
    Usman
     
     
     
     
     
    On 4/15/08, Bernd Kupka <coachkupka@hotmail.com> wrote:
    Hi Bruce,
    In my own experience there are only three options:
    1) you apply to R2 institutions, i.e., teaching oriented programs who are more likely to accept you,
    2) you get lucky and find an institution that is flexible enough to look beyond the traditional degree specifications, or
    3) you stay out of the US market ...
    European programs aren't any better in terms of restricting your access to their programs if you have a "non-traditional European" degree ... I have a degree from New Zealand - both, US and European institutions were VERY hesitant to accept that ... I eventually got lucky and found a very nice program that was only interested in me as a person, my current abilities, and my interests/strengths ...
    Good luck!!!
    Bernd Kupka, Ph.D.



    Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 13:33:37 -0700
    From: VTran@NDS.COM
    Subject: European PhDs
    To: OB@AOMLISTS.pace.edu


    Vu Tran submitted on behalf of Bruce Hoag at brucehoag1@gmail.com
     
    Dear Colleagues,
     
    I have problem, and everyone I have contacted thus far does not know how to solve it. The problem is far from unique, so I am appealing to you for advice on what to do.
     
    I graduated with my PhD from the Manchester Business School in the United Kingdom last year. The London Financial Times recently rated this doctoral program as No. 1 in the world.
     
    The problem concerns the path to obtaining a European PhD. European PhDs, as a rule, are not course-based. That is, students are not required to take courses and pass comprehensive exams before engaging in the research that will lead to their dissertations. Instead, the research begins on the first day and continues until the dissertation is handed in. Then there is an oral defense in the presence of an internal examiner (from the university where the student is enrolled) and an external examiner (someone in a similar research area who is from another university). The external examiner has the final say in whether or not the degree is awarded. This makes the process an apprenticeship more than anything else.
     
    The "problem" with this process is that US universities don't seem to know what courses a person with a European PhD is qualified to teach. As a result, they revert back to courses that were taken at the Masters level which means that they are not recognizing the PhD. This, it seems to me, is supremely unjust. We all know that you can take every course in the catalogue and still be ABD. It's the dissertation that matters, not all the hoops you had to jump through to get it accepted.
     
    What experiences have you had with this "problem," and how can we as a community solve it?
     
    Bruce

    Connect to the next generation of MSN Messenger  Get it now!

    <x-sigsep>

    ______________________________________

    Prof. John Antonakis
    Associate Dean, Research
    Faculty of Business and Economics
    University of Lausanne
    Internef #527
    CH-1015 Lausanne-Dorigny
    Switzerland

    Tel: ++41 (0)21 692-3438
    Fax: ++41 (0)21 692-3305

    http://www.hec.unil.ch/people/jantonakis&cl=en
    ______________________________________

    </x-sigsep>


  • 8.  European PhDs

    Posted 10-18-2009 23:58
    Dear Collegues,

    Apologies again for cross-postings. I've received no end of help from this list-serv in the past, so I hope that you will have some good advice for me on this occasion as well.

    I received my PhD from the Manchester Business School (MBS) in the United Kingdom. Those of you who are familiar with European programs will know that most of these schools award PhDs on the strength of the dissertation alone - that is, there are no courses, and therefore no transcripts. This is also true in my case. The same degree of rigor is demanded, but evaluated in a different way. MBS is accredited by the AACSB International, as are UCLA, Columbia, Dartmouth, Harvard, Northwestern, Stanford and Yale; so, you can see that the accreditation is valid.

    My problem is that the University of Phoenix, where I teach periodically as an adjunct, is demanding transcripts to support my PhD. At first, they said that a letter from MBS would be sufficient; but now they appear to have changed their mind. If they refuse to accept my degree, I will be paid as if I only had a Masters. Since most of you have PhDs, you can imagine how I feel about this.

    I would like to hear from those of you have encountered similar problems, either as one who holds a PhD from a non-transcript granting school and have been hired by schools that normally require them or who have hired faculty with PhDs who did not have transcripts. How do I handle this problem? What leverage is available to me to get these people to recognize my degree?

    As always, I'm especially appreciative of your counsel.

    Cheers, Bruce

    Bruce Hoag, PhD, CPsychol
    Organizational Psychologist

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